House of Lords
Tuesday, 18th June 2002.
The House met at half-past two of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Salisbury.
Further Education: Funding
Lord Dormand of Easington asked Her Majesty's Government:
- When convergence of funding, salaries and status of further education colleges and schools might take place.
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the Government place equal value on the vital contributions both colleges and schools make to the delivery of our educational agenda. There is no deadline for convergence of funding levels between colleges and schools. We are committed to increasing funding for colleges. But noble Lords will appreciate that we cannot commit ourselves beyond the resources we secure. Each college agrees pay and conditions with its staff in the context of its overall resources.
Lord Dormand of Easington: My Lords, does my noble friend agree that there is no argument about the need to close the gap between further education and school sixth forms? Is he aware that funding for pupils in school sixth forms is 10 per cent higher than it is in further education colleges, and that the pay of further education lecturers is around £2,000 less per year than it is for teachers who do the same work in sixth forms? While I acknowledge that the Government have made an improvement in the situation, cannot my noble friend say, in spite of his initial Answer, when they expect the complete or near-complete removal of what in fact is a glaring anomaly between the two sectors in education?
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, without being able to confirm precisely the figures identified by my noble friend, I recognise the validity of his position; namely, that a funding gap exists between colleges and schools. He will know that we are doing our best to address that. He will recognise also that the increase in funding for further education since this Government came to power is 26 per cent. So we are making progress. However, the gap still remains and we will make progress as far as resources allow.
Lord Renton: My Lords, would it help the Government to know that although further education is a splendid aim for the whole of the country, the need for it varies from time to time and from place to place?
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, variations in demand certainly exist; that is why some colleges expand faster than others. But it is the case, well
attested, that this nation is under-educated and under-trained. Further education has a crucial role to play in filling that gap and that is why additional resources are necessary.
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, the Minister recognises that there is a gap between further education and sixth form funding. Difficulties arise with sixth form funding at this moment. Given that the noble Lord said that the Government are addressing the gap problem, can he say whether it will be a levelling down to further education levels or a levelling up to sixth form levels? Schools with sixth forms have been promised that there will be no reduction of funding.
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, when did this Government ever level down in respect of education? Of course we intend to level up. Part of the problem is that, whereas we have devoted 26 per cent of extra resources to further education, in the 1990s, under a previous administration, there was a 12 per cent cut in real terms for further education.
Baroness Maddock: My Lords, can the Minister tell us how the Government have been monitoring the funding of further education since the Learning and Skills Council took over? I declare an interest as a governor at a further education college. This college was once a sixth-form college under the local authority; it then moved to the previous funding regime and now comes under the Learning and Skills Council. Our experience tells us that the amount of bureaucracy involved is far greater now even than under the local authority. I shall be grateful to know what feedback the Government are getting on this issue.
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the noble Baroness will recognise that the development of the Learning and Skills Council enables us to evaluate the quality and performance of trainers and educators across the further education sector and in the world of employment. It is true that the Learning and Schools Council has only been in existence for 18 months and will take some time to settle down with regard to its arrangements. Each local body has its specific responsibilities. However, I can assure the noble Baroness that the controls and reporting mechanisms of the council are at least as stringent as anything we have ever had before for further education.
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, as we are spending so much on education, which is a very good thing, does the Minister think that it might be possible to persuade people not to use such terrible expressions as, "delivering an educational agenda"?
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I hope that the noble Earl has not just caught me out in using that phrase. We are all guilty at times of using jargon. I accept his rebuke and will pass on to others the importance of communicating the vital matter of the priority of education in our national life in intelligent and appropriate ways.
Baroness Sharp of Guildford: My Lords, is the Minister aware that the funding gap between salaries
in school sixth forms and further education colleges is causing a considerable recruitment difficulty for further education colleges? He is right that they play a vital part in providing education in this country, but they will not be able to go on doing so unless the salary gap is closed.
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I agree with the noble Baroness that sixth-form colleges are of importance in "delivering the educational agenda". It did not take me long. I think that she recognises that sixth-form colleges have an important role to play. We recognise that a gap exists. I recognised that in my Answer to my noble friend's original Question. We are doing our best to fill the gap because, as the noble Baroness rightly indicated, it is important that we sustain recruitment to sixth-form colleges as well as to other areas of education.
Lord Dormand of Easington: My Lords, my noble friend has just said that there has been a 26 per cent increase in funding for further education. Can I assume that he means over the six years since the Government have been in power? If so, and if my arithmetic is correct, that means that it will take another 18 years before the levelling-up comes.
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, no, the figure I sought to identify was the increase in total funding devoted to further education based on the year 1997 when we came to power and the 26 per cent increase in real terms since then. I frankly acknowledge to my noble friend, and of course to the House, that there is still a gap in provision between further education and schools. We intend to seek, as best we can, additional resources to close that gap as early as we can.
Iraq
2.44 p.m.
Lord Judd asked Her Majesty's Government:
- What is their policy towards the need for explicit authority by the United Nations Security Council for any military action against Iraq.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Amos): My Lords, as we have always made clear, any military action that the UK undertakes anywhere in the world will be carried out in accordance with international law.
No decision has been taken on military action against Iraq. Iraq's obligations are unambiguously set out in the relevant Security Council resolutions; and Iraq is clearly in breach of them.
We do not rule out the need to take further military action in future. Whether explicit authorisation by the United Nations Security Council is needed would depend on the circumstances at the time.
Lord Judd: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that reply. Does she agree that it would be unfortunate to alienate any sections of world opinion—upon which we would be very dependent for success in anything we tried to do—by the way in which we take action and by failure to consult fully? Is not the point about "explicit"—as distinct from "implicit"—Security Council endorsement for any action, the fact that it represents worldwide broad support for what is being done? To contemplate action in this grave situation without such worldwide support could be hazardous and counterproductive.
Baroness Amos: My Lords, I think that I made it absolutely clear in my original reply that any military action that we undertake anywhere in the world is carried out in accordance with international law. That remains the position. Yes, I think that it is important that there is worldwide broad support. We saw that worldwide support following September 11th and the action that was taken in Afghanistan. We shall continue to consult with our international partners in the way that we have always done.
Lord Campbell of Croy: My Lords, do the Government regard as still in force the Security Council's resolutions passed more than 10 years ago after Saddam's invasion of Kuwait? And, after September 11th, have the Government sought agreement within the council on action over Iraq's harbouring of international terrorists?
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