| Previous Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |
Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, the point about using that expression is that, as the noble Earl will know very well, some sanctions run for a defined period of time such as 13 or 26 weeks, and there is nothing the claimant can do about it. The point about saying, "All they have to do is to comply", is that at the moment, if after three efforts at contact they come through to the work-focused interview, the sanctions stop. That is the weight of it.
Earl Russell: My Lords, is the Minister saying that if there is no compliance, the sanction never stops?
Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, if there is no compliance, the sanction will continue. That is why we are trying to reach people through three efforts, including looking at good cause.
Earl Russell: My Lords, I do not believe that the Minister has improved her case.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, it has been a very interesting short debate. I was very glad that the noble Baroness moved the amendment in the way she
did. The clause seeks to bring people who are partners of anyone on benefits into a work-focused interview. We have already explored some of the basic issues. I want to approach the matter from a slightly different angle, but first I shall address the particular questions which the noble Baroness asked of me.First, what is a couple? As far as I am aware, the definition of a couple, whether married or unmarried—for example, a cohabiting couple—has not changed for over 50 years. In a similar discussion the other day the noble Earl, Lord Russell, helped me out in that regard. The basic tests are well known in relation to social security. There is a shared financial arrangement; there is presumed to be a shared sexual arrangement; they possibly have children; and the relationship has some degree of stability. Those are the usual tests that are applied to married or to unmarried couples. It is also a test in relation to people who are permanently separated.
Before as a Parliament we discuss and determine the possibility of the Bill proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Lester, in law the term "couple" applies only to a heterosexual couple. Therefore, if two men or two women were living together in a sexual relationship, they would not be treated as a couple under social security law. That is the downside for them; on the other hand they would not gain advantages of inheritance rights, property and the like. Until, when or if the law changes that position, it applies only to cohabiting heterosexual couples.
I was pressed on the degree of coercion. It will be made perfectly clear that the interview will be exploratory, considering work and its options. The point is that there will be one work-focussed interview, six months after the benefit has started. At the moment there are no proposals for any subsequent or second interview and the benefits will continue to be paid. Therefore, it cannot be, as the noble Baroness pressed me, a coercive interview.
I want to return to the substantive point raised by the noble Baroness. She is absolutely right to say that largely this is a clause about women. Something like 79 per cent of the partners of those on JSA are women and of those on disability benefits, 84 per cent of the partners are women. The noble Earl, Lord Russell, is right to say that we are seeing profound changes. Why does it matter? The more I work in this field the more I am convinced that we need to address the issue of poverty through considering the position of second earners in the family. The noble Earl, Lord Russell, and my noble friend Lady Turner know as well as anyone that for a workless family the best way out of poverty is for someone to go into work.
Increasingly, it may be easier for the woman to find work than for the man. Roughly three-quarters of married women are in work. Over the past three years the number of jobs available to women has run at considerably higher figures than the jobs available to men. Increasingly, she is more likely to find work than
he is. One of my favourite small statistics is that there are more widows in work over the age of 50 than widowers, yet too often we persist in seeing her as a passive dependent on him.The noble Earl, Lord Russell, is absolutely right to say that that world view is changing and rightly so. For the sake of her family well-being, she, as much as he, needs to stay in touch with the labour market. That is why I am delighted that the new tax credits will be based on gross income and not on net income. That gives her much more of an incentive to go into the labour market without losing some of the tax credits.
That is not only for the benefit of the family—the two of them must make the decision—but it is for her own sake too. We know that 75 per cent of lone parents have come out of a couple relationship. We know that the poorest children in our society—they scar our society with their poverty—are children of lone parents who are not in work and not receiving maintenance. We know that if she was working while part of a couple, she is far more likely to continue to work as a lone parent, protecting herself and her children from long-term and persistent poverty. Anything that we can do to keep her as a married woman or a woman in a partnership in contact with the labour market so that she can make informed choices, not only helps to protect her family as a couple from poverty, but also helps to protect her and provides some future insurance should her relationship splinter so that she is on her own seeking to support her children.
Furthermore, if she is in work, she may well be able to build up pension rights, although given the complexity of the pension system, she may well need an informal and helpful, but positive, interview to explain how that may happen. If she is a carer, for example, she could receive access to a state second pension. A woman who was able to earn even a modest pension that is worth £25 a week or £100 a month for a couple who otherwise would be dependent on the state retirement pension with a pension credit, would now keep £60 of that. But I bet she does not know about that now; she cannot know; it is far too complicated given the technicalities of pension credits. A helpful, positive, unthreatening interview would give her that information. Her ability to work not only shelters the family from poverty while of working age and protects her from poverty should she become a lone parent, but it would also reduce the likelihood of carrying that poverty into old age.
Men are much more likely to have labour market contacts, a brother or a mate in work who can let them know when a job possibility is opening up. Women, especially if they have had children, may be many years away from having carried out waged work and they need far more help. They may need more confidence boosting, the offer of re-skilling, support through the early months and that is where personal advisers and work-focused interviews can take them through the territory. Virtually every lone parent whom I have met—I have met hundreds and hundreds—sing the
praises of their advisers based on work-focused interviews who have helped them to make informed choices.We want all women as partners to have that opportunity and to have the right to make choices and work-focused interviews can do that. Some of the partners may have health problems; as my noble friend Lady Turner rightly said, others may have young children; others may have multiple caring responsibilities and the interviews may be able to help them with better support mechanisms. Equally, they may want to work and not yet know how to start. This clause is about empowering women as partners with much of the information that the husband takes for granted.
Do not take my word for it. There is the evidence of the Select Committee on Education and Employment which held a joint inquiry into the ONE service and stated:
- "ONE interviews offer positive advantages to all those claiming benefits. We take the view that the requirement to attend an interview is not onerous in itself; but the element of compulsion may well be necessary to bring along those people who are demoralised, isolated, or lacking in confidence, in order to connect them to the help and encouragement which is available".
I hope that the noble Baroness will agree that I have tried to answer her specific points about partners and the like. If we are to help women to keep their families out of poverty, if we are to protect them should they become lone parents and if we are not to push poverty into old age, the most helpful way will be to bring them into work-based interviews where all those matters and ways forward that suit them can be discussed and explored. I hope that the noble Baroness will feel able to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Miller of Hendon: My Lords, having given the Minister the opportunity to make that clear explanation I thank her for it. If anyone else stood at the Dispatch Box and made some of the points that she has made I would be tempted to say, "That is all apple pie" and so on. However, I believe that the reputation of the noble Baroness is such that when she says that she has seen the evidence, which will be published in July, I believe that she has seen it and that it is good. She also mentioned what the Select Committee said. Despite the fact that I had doubts, and in view of the way that the noble Baroness has put the matter, I can see the argument. I believe that the House will want to see the evidence. I am happy to take the word of the noble Baroness so I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Next Section
Back to Table of Contents
Lords Hansard Home Page