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Lord Shutt of Greetland: I am grateful to noble Lords, particularly to the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, for the comments that have been made. I am certainly not averse to some changes. Whether the important words "protect the public" should be so paramount at this point is a question on which we can reflect. We will think on those things. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendment No. 181 not moved.]
3.45 p.m.
Lord Shutt of Greetland moved Amendment No. 182:
- Page 30, line 41, at end insert—
The noble Lord said: I would describe Amendment No. 182 as the, "assurance to child and child participation amendment". We are still considering the aim and purpose of this. Putting in place certain important principles in regard to the aim and purpose is the right thing to do. Therefore this amendment suggests that two new subsections (3A) and (3B) should be inserted to make it very clear that the youth justice system is child-centred. The person involved should be given assurances, as well as the opportunity to express his or her views. I beg to move.
Lord Williams of Mostyn: I agree with the noble Lord that there is an absolute need for everyone, not only the child, to have the right to express their views and to have them heard. To an extent, perhaps we have the balance wrong at the moment. Very often it is the victim of crime who seems to go unheard. I would remind the noble Lord, Lord Shutt, that he said this is an aims and purpose clause and he is seeking to introduce process here. While it is not fundamental, perhaps it is an inappropriate place to include the amendment.
We shall be introducing youth conferencing arrangements which, for the first time, will provide an inclusive process in which all those affected by crime can play an active, full and proportionate part in its resolution. The rights referred to in this amendment are fully safeguarded in the Bill. I would suggest to your Lordships that no further amendment is needed here and, indeed, there is a concentration in this amendment on the rights of the child—that is, the alleged offender—while being silent on the rights of anyone else.
Lord Shutt of Greetland: I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendment No. 183 not moved.]
Lord Shutt of Greetland moved Amendment No. 184:
The noble Lord said: I am sure that the Committee will give a tremendous welcome to the idea that a child should have the proceedings explained to them, and that the explanation should be made in simple language. It seems to me that clarity and the use of simple language is essential when talking to a child, whether that child is a small child or a more elderly child, as discussed earlier. It is important that the child understands the proceedings and that the explanation is given in simple language. I beg to move.
Lord Glentoran: I support the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Shutt. It seems very sensible and would be a valuable addition to the Bill. I make that point despite not having attended a children's court or the preliminaries to children's court or youth court. Clear explanation of the procedures is absolutely vital to the whole process of reintegrating young offenders into society. The starting point, after being arrested and charged and all that goes with that, must be that they understand the whole process of the justice system in which they are, unfortunately, involved.
Lord Williams of Mostyn: Perhaps I could offer a triple reassurance—unless the noble Lord, Lord Shutt, wants to continue.
Lord Shutt of Greetland: I am afraid that the speed of events beat me. I apologise for that. There is a clause of this nature in the Bill. The important thing is that it be brought forward so that it covers all orders, not just the reparation order, where it currently appears. That was the major reason for tabling the amendment. The words are there, but only in respect of reparation orders, not in respect of community responsibility orders and custody care orders. I should have said that earlier.
Lord Williams of Mostyn: I was going to draw the Committee's attention to paragraph (5) on page 32, which, as the noble Lord rightly says, deals with reparation orders. Perhaps it is helpful if I remind your Lordships that in June 2000, the Lord Chief Justice issued a practice direction in Northern Ireland, which is similar to that in England and Wales, requiring that the Crown Court should take steps to ensure that a defendant understands court procedures and should conduct proceedings in a way commensurate with the ability of the defendants to understand and concentrate. In addition, as recommended by the criminal justice review, the Northern Ireland Court Service is bringing forward guidelines aimed at allowing young people better to understand and be engaged in youth court proceedings.
The matters that the noble Lord has properly referred to are being dealt with in those different ways. If he requires further reassurance before the Report, I am happy to meet him with officials to discuss these matters to see whether we can cure his concerns.
Perhaps I can go a stage further. The provisions for community responsibility orders are dealt with in new Article 36F(5) inserted by Clause 54, on page 35, and those for youth conference orders are dealt with in new Article 36K(2) inserted by Clause 59, on page 54. I sympathise with the noble Lord. The provisions are to be found, but one has to look around a little.
Lord Shutt of Greetland: I am grateful for that contribution. I may well take up the Minister's offer. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 53 [Reparation orders]:
[Amendments Nos. 185 and 186 not moved.]
Lord Shutt of Greetland moved Amendment No. 187:
The noble Lord said: This series of clauses brings into the script education and those involved in education, be they teachers or others. The reason for moving this series of amendments is to enhance the position of education within the Bill.
Teachers and others connected with education may well know more about the child than those new people who enter the child's life subsequent to wrongdoing. The important feature of all the amendments is to bring education and those concerned with it into some of the decisions that will affect the lives of these young people.
Education is a not a not-particularly-optional add-on for young people. It is a core activity for them. Often, the people involved in education have the most knowledge of that child, apart from the parents. Although probation officers and social workers and so forth ultimately become involved in the lives of these children, the people who were involved earliest and who have an in-depth knowledge and a link with the real world in which the children lived before they got into bother can perhaps help to get them back to that world instead of the world of trouble.
It also occurs to me that this is part of joined-up government and joined-up life. The people involved in education have an important role in youth justice. This series of amendments highlights people involved in education—likely to be teachers—who can assist in finding the right way forward for these young people. I beg to move.
Lord Maginnis of Drumglass: I understand what the noble Lord is attempting with the amendment. Nevertheless, as an old village schoolmaster, I oppose the idea. New Article 36A(4)specifies what the court "must obtain" before making a reparation order. The
In my experience, if there are extenuating circumstances in a case, schoolteachers will make a submission, where advisable, on behalf of the child. However, to make that obligatory by legislation would put an onus on a professional person who is not initially responsible for dealing with a child who becomes involved in criminal activity.
A probation officer, whose job is to be directly involved, will be appointed, as will a social worker. However, it would be unwise and unfair to place such an obligation on members of the teaching profession.
"(3A) All persons and bodies exercising functions in relation to the youth justice system shall assure to the child who is capable of forming his or her own views the right to express those views freely in all matters affecting the child, the views of the child being given due weight in accordance with the age and maturity of the child.
(3B) For the purpose of subsection (3A) the child shall in particular be provided the opportunity to be heard in any judicial and administrative proceedings affecting the child, either directly or through a representative or an appropriate body in a manner consistent with the procedural rules of natural law."
Before Clause 53, insert the following new clause—
"PARTICIPATION AND UNDERSTANDING
(1) Before making any order in respect of a child, the court shall explain to the child the nature of the proceedings and where the child is charged with an offence the nature of the charge.
(2) The explanation shall be given in simple language suitable to the child's age and understanding."
Page 31, line 25, at end insert—
"( ) a person professionally responsible for the child's education where the child is in receipt of education;"
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