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Lord Peston: My Lords, I am lost. We all believe that collaboration is a good idea where the schools themselves agree. But it may well be that I fell asleep during the speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp. She alluded to Clause 29. My noble friend the Minister may be able to elucidate, but it seems to me that that clause contains everything that the noble Baroness has in mind other than the word "confederation". I am not at all clear what we would gain by agreeing the amendment as opposed to Clause 29. The clause enables schools to collaborate in anything they might find to their joint advantage. I am all in favour of putting things on the face of the Bill, but in this case—unless I have misunderstood the Bill—it is already there. Perhaps my noble friend can explain what I have missed.
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, with the leave of the House and before the noble Lord sits down, perhaps I may ask a question so that the noble Baroness can respond to it and extend the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Peston. What is illegal now about two governing bodies working exactly as described in Clause 29?
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, perhaps I may begin by saying that I agree with the principle behind the amendment and that I am eager to ensure that we make provision to allow for the form of collaboration that the noble Baronesses, Lady Sharp and Lady Warmsley, have asked for, including consultation with local education authorities.
I recognise that to support and encourage that development it is important to have alternative governance arrangements in place for schools that want to collaborate strategically but do not want to go as far as dissolving their governing body and ceding all their functions to a single federated governing body. In response to earlier amendments, I said that this is about ensuring that we have the options available to allow schools to decide for themselves which is the best way forward in terms of the collaboration that they want to have.
As noble Lords will know, some schools want to pursue full federation. Others will feel that relinquishing their governing body would be too high a price to pay for the ability to have a single body to take certain key decisions. However, I am mindful that no schools in education action zones—the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, mentioned them—chose to cede all their responsibilities to an EAZ forum. Therefore, I understand that schools may be reluctant to pursue the federation route, particularly where mixed category federations involving schools of a religious character could be involved.
We want to create an opportunity for schools to put their toe in the water or to slide slowly into the shallow end on their way to what will be the best collaborative model. The noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, said that we have included provision within the Bill and my noble friend Lord Peston is correct. Clause 29 does do that. It allows for schools to collaborate strategically without disbanding their individual governing bodies. That clause allows for two or more governing bodies to delegate certain functions to a joint committee, as well as allowing for a joint committee between two or more schools' whole governing bodies.
The noble Baroness asked whether that was allowed. She will be aware that under the Schools Standards and Framework Act 1998 the decision to prevent schools from having other collaboration—infant and junior schools being the classic example—meant that it was more difficult for them to set up strategic groupings of committees that could take decisions. This puts back into legislation the ability to do that and that is precisely what we are trying to do.
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. The School Standards and Framework Act 1998 prevented the governing bodies from joining and not their joint working; namely, governing bodies working with each other as sovereign governing bodies.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, I shall need to write to the noble Baroness to be precise about that. However, my understanding is that there were some issues surrounding committees being able to collaborate effectively on behalf of other governing bodies. We shall need to ensure that we have clarified that correctly, but that is my understanding.
I am advised that Clause 29 does allow for delegations or the ceding of certain key strategic decisions to an overarching strategy or policy committee; namely, a confederation option. I agree with the principles behind that. I have indicated to the noble Baroness that the amendment itself contains some technical issues. I am mindful of the words that the noble Baroness used about being disproportionate. I believe that where the noble Baroness is driving us is to ensure that we do not put federations and confederations in different places in terms of how schools feel that we are looking to them.
Therefore, I should like to propose to the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, that between now and Third Reading we might have a conversation to ensure that we achieve the objective I believe we both share—to demonstrate that the legislation is entirely adequate to that end. In the course of doing that, we shall discuss with parliamentary counsel what more could be done on the face of the Bill. I hope that with that reassurance the noble Baroness will feel able to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Sharp of Guildford: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for her comments. Perhaps I may use this opportunity to reply to the noble Lord, Lord Peston, by saying yes. The title of the clause did
not indicate that it was supposed to be positively encouraging the coming together of schools in this way. I believe that, bearing in mind the prominence given in the Bill to federations, this clause at the end of the chapter is not enough. That is why I deliberately said to the Minister that I realise that the clause is here, and that her answer was going to be that we have already got the powers. I am now saying that the powers may be there but I would like to see more prominence given to them. I welcome the opportunity to discuss the issue with the Minister further between now and Third Reading. Perhaps we can then return with something that is jointly agreeable. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
4.15 p.m.
Clause 26 [Limits on power to provide community facilities etc.]:
Baroness Blatch moved Amendment No. 50:
- Page 16, line 27, leave out "to a significant extent"
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, Clause 26(3) reads:
- "A governing body shall exercise the power conferred by section 25(1) only if and to the extent that they are satisfied that anything which they propose to do will not to a significant extent interfere with the performance of any duty imposed on them by section 20(2) or by any other provision of the Education Acts".
Section 20(2) refers to the conduct of the school and the requirement to promote high standards. However, that is undermined by Clause 26(3) which states:
- "A governing body shall exercise the power conferred by section 25(1) only if and to the extent that they are satisfied that anything which they propose to do will not to a significant extent interfere with the performance of any duty imposed on them".
Is my understanding correct that the governors of each school have carte blanche to determine what "to a significant extent" actually means? In addition, should governors define what,
- "interfere with the performance of any duty"
When the noble Baroness responded to the debate on this issue on 9th May, she said:
- "The inclusion of the wording "to a significant extent" ensures that insignificant incidental effects on a school's main educational role are not seen as obstacles that would prevent worthwhile services being established. For instance, it might be argued that adults using an ICT suite on school premises during school hours could potentially impact on teachers' and pupils' flexibility to use that suite".—[Official Report, 9/5/02; col. 1372.]
The governing body's first and foremost duty is to the pupils at the school. Nothing should be allowed to distract them from that key task. Therefore, it would be helpful if the legislation required them to satisfy the local education authority that their proposals will not interfere with the performance of their duty. The governing body should conduct the school with a view to promoting high standards of educational achievement at the school and that work should not be impeded by any outside activity. I beg to move.
Baroness Walmsley: My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendment No. 51 which is grouped with Amendment No. 50. When that part of the Bill was discussed in Committee I reassured the Minister that from these Benches we are supportive of the many ways in which schools are developing their links with the community and embedding community facilities within the school environment. The noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, who is not in her place today, outlined some valuable and impressive initiatives which we all welcome.
However, we expressed concern that the need to consult parents and teachers about the provision of community facilities on the school site was to be put only in guidance and not on the face of the Bill. We accept the Minister's reassurance that it is not the Government's intention that such provision would have any detrimental effect on the performance by school staff of their duties. Indeed, at a time when the Government are seeking ways of lightening teachers' workloads that would surely be foolish. However, despite our acceptance of that, we are still concerned that a matter so potentially fundamental to the operation of the school as the provision of community facilities must be discussed with teachers and parents. That must be enshrined in the Bill.
Such consultation would surely give ownership of the project to the staff and the parents and thus ensure its success in the end. I hope that by pressing the matter the Minister will feel able to respond positively as she has on a number of other matters.
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