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Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, perhaps I might speak first to Amendment No. 50. I understand that the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, is concerned to ensure that the activities that we have been discussing do not interfere with the way in which schools are able to provide education for their children. I believe that we are in agreement on this. The question is how best to ensure it within the Bill.
I have discussed this matter with our legal adviser to ensure that the words we use are appropriate. I hope therefore that the noble Baroness will accept, in the spirit of my reply, that I have considered carefully the
points she made. I do not believe that the words "interfere" and "compromise" mean the same thing. However, I am clear that,
- "interference to a significant extent",
Let me emphasise again what it is that Clauses 25 and 26 seek to achieve. We want to give governors a clear legal basis under which they can provide services for the benefit of their pupils and their families. That will include the provision of services which seek to remove the barriers that currently stand in the way of children's education; services such as pupil and family counselling (in cases of bereavement or family breakdown for example); child and family health services where on-site provision will reduce the amount of time children are out of the classroom and improve access which might otherwise be difficult in areas where there is poor local transport; social care to address more immediately the complex needs of the pupils and their parents; and provision of out-of-school hours childcare which will ensure that pupils are looked after in a safe environment. Almost any of those services could be argued to interfere in some way with the governors' duty to promote high standards of educational achievement.
Further, if this amendment were accepted, it may expose schools to judicial review proceedings on spurious grounds. As a past Minister for Education I am sure the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, will know that, on occasion—rare thankfully—some have used the wording of the law to involve schools in long, drawn-out legal process. While we also want to protect educational standards, and I believe that Clause 26 does, I am keen to ensure that governors are not discouraged from providing a service such as a breakfast club—a service offered perhaps in a classroom that might interfere to an insignificant extent with the running of the school because it causes a slight delay to the start of the formal school day while breakfast is cleared away.
Likewise I would not want governors to be deterred from making full use of the school premises and facilities at weekends. We know from schools and the local education authority in Cambridgeshire, who have been working very closely with us in developing this approach and who have a long established history of community education, of the benefits that can be gained from opening up schools to the whole community. These clauses will enable more local authorities and schools to develop a similar vision to that of Henry Morris while ensuring that the main object of the school is safeguarded.
I should like to emphasise once again that we expect all schools that develop family and community services to see a positive impact on education standards. I trust the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, is reassured by my explanation and will withdraw her amendment.
I turn now to Amendment No. 51. Clause 26(4) already places a statutory duty on governing bodies to have regard to guidance issued by the Secretary of State, and that guidance will make it clear that governing bodies will always need to consult with all major stakeholders including school staff, parents and pupils, before providing family and community services.
However, on reflection, we accept that we should place a duty upon governing bodies to consult specific key stakeholders, including parents, staff and pupils. The Government are therefore prepared to accept this amendment in principle. However, we would like to consider further whether the proposed group of statutory consultees should be expanded. We should therefore like to have a little time to reflect on the precise wording of the amendment and come back with our own amendment at Third Reading. Given that assurance, I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, will not press her amendment.
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, I am not happy with the noble Baroness's response. She said that she understands and then went on to argue that it would be possible to have activities that interfere with the primary duty of the school to produce good education and achieve high standards for the children in that school. The noble Baroness even went on to say that a small compromise of the fundamental aim of the school would be acceptable.
There should be no compromise regarding a school's duty to promote high standards of educational achievement for the school. The noble Baroness cited my authority, Cambridgeshire. William Morris would turn in his grave if he thought there was any suggestion that what he started was anything that would impede the achievement of high standards of education for children in school. What William Morris did enhanced education; it did not impede it in any way.
A breakfast club in a school was the only example which officials came up with. But any breakfast club that overruns into the school day is actually failing children. The school day is already short enough. For many children it starts between nine and nine-thirty in the morning, and it is over between three and three-thirty in the afternoon. The idea of breakfast clubs overrunning is an absolute scandal. If they cannot be run to enable children to start their lessons on time, then there is something wrong with the management of the school.
I feel very strongly about this amendment. I ask for the opinion of the House.
4.26 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 50) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 79; Not-Contents, 157.
Aberdare, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Astor of Hever, L.
Blatch, B.
Boardman, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brookeborough, V.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Byford, B.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Chan, L.
Cooke of Islandreagh, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Cox, B.
Craigavon, V.
Crathorne, L.
Crickhowell, L.
Dacre of Glanton, L.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Dundee, E.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Ferrers, E.
Flather, B.
Freeman, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Garel-Jones, L.
Glentoran, L.
Gray of Contin, L.
Holderness, L.
Hooper, B.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hurd of Westwell, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jopling, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Lucas, L.
Luke, L. [Teller]
McColl of Dulwich, L.
Maginnis of Drumglass, L.
Marlesford, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Northesk, E.
O'Cathain, B.
Oppenheim-Barnes, B.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Platt of Writtle, B.
Prior, L.
Rees, L.
Renton, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rogan, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Seccombe, B. [Teller]
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Thatcher, B.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Vivian, L.
Waddington, L.
Warnock, B.
Wilcox, B.
Acton, L.
Addington, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alli, L.
Amos, B.
Ampthill, L.
Andrews, B.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Avebury, L.
Bach, L.
Barker, B.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Billingham, B.
Blackstone, B.
Boothroyd, B.
Borrie, L.
Boston of Faversham, L.
Bragg, L.
Brookman, L.
Burlison, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Chorley, L.
Christopher, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Crawley, B.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Falkland, V.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Fearn, L.
Filkin, L.
Fitt, L.
Gale, B.
Geraint, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Golding, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Goodhart, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Grabiner, L.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Greengross, B.
Gregson, L.
Grenfell, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harrison, L.
Haskins, L.
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Hooson, L.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Islwyn, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jeger, B.
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Jones, L.
Jordan, L.
Judd, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Levy, L.
Lipsey, L.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
[Teller]
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Methuen, L.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Mitchell, L.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Newby, L.
Nicol, B.
Orme, L.
Palmer, L.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Pendry, L.
Peston, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Puttnam, L.
Quirk, L.
Radice, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Rooker, L.
Russell, E.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Sharman, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Sheldon, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Simon, V.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Stallard, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Temple-Morris, L.
Tenby, V.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Tomlinson, L.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Walpole, L.
Warner, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Weatherill, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L. (Lord Privy Seal)
Williamson of Horton, L.
Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.
4.36 p.m.
Clause 28 [Governors' reports and other information]:
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