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Lord Addington: My Lords, the argument regarding getting rid of playing fields has gone on for a long time. The noble Baroness has effectively put her hands up and said that it was a mistake—I think that it was a mistake initially—to allow too many playing fields to disappear.

The Government said that they would stop it. They have not done enough. The noble Baroness has made a good attempt to solve the problem in the context of an education Bill. The problem is that this is not totally an education problem. Playing fields are educational facilities. The Department of Health and the Home Office could be interested in the issue. The Government should embrace the fact that sports fields are needed in order to allow sports to be played. We need turf. Sports halls do not allow one to play in our society the culturally acceptable sports for mass participation.

Basketball is not a major sport. Major participation sports are the various forms of football—association, union and league—hockey and so on. They require turf in order to be played properly. One cannot play them inside a sports hall. One needs grass on the ground.

When one says that it is a terribly small pitch, often that gives one somewhere to warm up or play a shortened version of a game. That is particularly true for children. The minute that one starts to reduce that area of open preserve for turf one cuts down the opportunities for playing sport. Our society is suffering tremendous health deprivation because it is not taking enough exercise. Unless exercise is fun—and that means sport—it will not happen.

The amendment is a brave attempt effectively to stop a form of rot. I support it. I hope that the Government will give us a reason for not needing to support it by saying that that they will put in place something which goes even further. But, in the context of an education Bill, I believe that this is an appropriate approach. I look forward to a response from the Government which does not refer to historical blame, but what will be done now. Under the current system, it is quite clear that we are not

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preserving the vital thing that we need in order to play the culturally acceptable sports in our society; that is, preserved and maintained turf.

Lord Peston: My Lords, I hate to introduce a discordant note into our proceedings, but I must. Recently, my right honourable friend Mr Mandelson said that we were all Thatcherites now. Let me first say what an enormous pleasure it is to see the noble Baroness, Lady Thatcher, in her place. But he was slightly wrong, because if there is one group that clearly are not Thatcherites now, it is the Tory Front Bench in the House of Lords. This is an amendment that more or less says that the policies that they pursued previously were completely unacceptable and wrong.

The amendment is put forward by the excellent noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, in all innocence as if somehow these points were not made ages ago when many of us did not even know that one could sell playing fields. Suddenly, it became policy. We pointed out the consequences. It is really not good enough to get up and say, "Well, things have not worked out the way we said". They have worked out exactly in the way that one thought they would.

Therefore, we have the paradox that what is happening is that the Labour Government are being accused of not being a Labour Government. It is perfectly reasonable for someone such as myself to make that criticism. But to hear it coming from the Official Opposition Front Bench is absolutely ridiculous, to put it as mildly as I possibly can.

Having made—quite unusually for me—a political point, which, as noble Lords know, I hate to do, it does not mean that there is not a problem here. Clearly, we must think, and the noble Lord, Lord Addington, is quite right in saying that despite the great pleasure one gets in referring to the past, the present and the future are what matter. It is incumbent—and I am sure that the Minister will speak to this—on the Government to respond to these concerns.

I still remember with a shudder going miles to my school playing field, getting covered in mud and then discovering that there was no way of washing and having to trudge back to the bus in the freezing cold, having taken part in a game which I hated. So I do not have delusions about what the great pleasures of school sport are. I do not believe that the greatness of our country depends on school sport but, none the less, I accept that it is a matter of some significance. My noble friend is aware that I, like many of my noble friends, look with sadness at the sale of playing fields if there is no facility to replace them. The children of the current generation should suffer as we did—one of the great advantages of being old is to see the young not getting away with things when we could not.

So I hope that while rejecting the amendment my noble friend will still have some positive things to say, including one or two things that remind us that we are a Labour Government.

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5 p.m.

Lord Lucas: My Lords, it is interesting to consider what the independent sector is doing. Its parents and pupils can express their opinion, as it were. The independent sector is investing vast sums in sporting facilities. That is one of the main things on which it spends money. It spends money on that before it spends money on classrooms—certainly before it spends money on decoration. That is what parents and pupils want.

That is not happening in the state system; the opposite is happening. That is because parents' and pupils' views are not being taken into account in what schools are doing. Given the financial pressures in the other direction, I can understand why, but we ought to be more responsive to what parents and pupils clearly want, which is provision of secure and better sporting facilities, and not to allow that part of schools' heritage to be bled. Apart from anything else, it results in people having nowhere to walk their dogs.

Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, do not get me started on the subject of dogs.

I am delighted that the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, has raised this important issue. I am the Minister responsible for how we deal with school playing field policy and for working in close collaboration with the Department for Culture, Media and Sport and the Department of Health in our trilateral meetings on how to address our children's needs in terms of sport and exercise. I could talk at great length on the subject, but I feel that it is inappropriate to do so now. I offer to do so to any noble Lord who wants to hear me.

I turn to the amendment. The figures that are often cited are inaccurate because they refer to playing fields in all situations, not to school playing fields. With your Lordships' indulgence, I shall spend a moment to ensure that by the end of my contribution, the precise, exact figures are on the record. I think that that is important to noble Lords.

I take my responsibilities in this area extremely seriously. We introduced Section 77 of the School Standards and Framework Act 1998 to protect school playing fields. A sale or change in the use of a playing field may now happen only with the consent of the Secretary of State. Noble Lords will know that we do not have figures for the disposal of playing fields prior to the introduction of that protection, nor indeed for how the proceeds were used. I shall focus on what we have done.

Section 77 already requires a local authority or the governing body of any maintained school to obtain the consent of the Secretary of State before disposing or changing the use of a school playing field. To ensure that all relevant areas are captured, the definition of "playing field" is extremely broad. It ensures that all open areas on a school site are protected. So we are already ensuring that all outdoor areas used for social or recreational purposes or as habitat areas, as well as sports pitches, fall under the Act.

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Any application to dispose or change the use of a school playing field is considered against strict criteria. Consent will be given only when the remaining playing fields and sporting facilities meet the needs of local schools and the communities that formerly used them, and all proceeds are ploughed back into improved sport provision or educational facilities. Applicants are also required to consult fully on their proposals, including consulting the parents of pupils.

So the amendment adds nothing that is not already provided for in existing statutory provision. But our current protection also goes further than is proposed in the amendment. Since 16th July 2001, all applications have been subject to independent scrutiny by the School Playing Fields Advisory Panel. The panel comprises representatives of the National Playing Fields Association, the Central Council of Physical Recreation, the Local Government Association, the National Association of Head Teachers and the educational charity, Learning through Landscapes. I pay tribute to their work. The panel advises the Secretary of State on the extent to which applications meet the criteria. Only those applications that meet the criteria and are recommended by that group are accepted by me—and, of course, through me, by the Secretary of State.

I contend that the protection for school playing fields that we introduced is working. Last year, in all maintained schools—of which, your Lordships will be aware, there are well over 20,000—only 22 applications to sell school sports pitches were approved. That represents 0.1 per cent of all maintained schools. I can give the House the full position for all changes in all schools since 1st October 1998. We have approved 105 applications involving the loss of school sports pitches. In 43 cases—almost half—the reason for the loss was that the school was closing or had closed. Of the 62 cases involving schools that continued to operate, 38 resulted in improved sports facilities, including new or replacement sports pitches, all-weather pitches and sports halls. In the remaining 24 cases, the proceeds were used to improve teaching facilities.

So I can be clear that the amendment would not increase the existing protection for school playing fields, on which the Government have achieved a great deal. In addition, it would require ballots of the parental body, which would be bureaucratic and time-consuming for all involved. In some cases—this is the defect of the amendment—where the school is to close, it would simply be unworkable. In those circumstances and in the light of the technical defect in the amendment, I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, will feel able to withdraw it.

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