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Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, we seemed to be in danger of repeating our debate in Committee almost word for word and line for line. In Committee, however, we did not have the benefit of a speech from my noble friend Lord Peston. We are all the better for having had one today.
We are all united on one obvious point: we want to ensure that parents play the fullest possible part in our education provision. In all sorts of ways, we seek to ensure that that happens. We are always looking for
ways in which to enhance that role. My noble friend Lord Peston was right that we would be very fortunate to have another Michael Young to play the type of unique role he played in this sphere. Michael Young was extraordinarily adept at identifying needs and creating structures in which those needs could be met. However, Michael Young also recognised that, in many respects, a modern and healthy democratic society has ways of articulating those needs. If a national body would fill an enormous gap in our consultative procedures and fill a role currently denied to parents, surely that point would have emerged from our present structures.The parent governor representatives elected to our schools' governing bodies play a very important part in local—and increasingly in regional—consultation on developing education strategy. If a national body were needed, surely those representatives would have articulated that need and the department would have been under considerable pressure to establish a national council to bring together the various groups. I can only say that that has not happened. I believe that it has not happened because parents feel that there is a range of bodies in which they can play their part in challenging weaknesses in education provision and producing constructive outlines which provide a framework for consultation.
I shall make the most obvious point. Many parents play their part in the campaign for state education, and many play their part in the National Governors' Council. Many parents play a very effective part in parent teacher associations, which have a national council. Those may be membership organisations, but that does not mean that they are not effective in collecting views and making valuable contributions to the debate on all aspects of the work in schools.
We share the desire of the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, to enhance parents' role in education. None of us believes that we can provide effective education in schools without the crucial role played by parents. However, as my noble friend Lord Peston said, the case has not been made for establishing another body entirely with government resources. I also do not believe that parents have identified a crucial gap which they feel limits their opportunities to contribute to education. It is also not an emerging point. The National Confederation of Parent Teacher Associations has, after all, existed for more than 40 years.
I accept entirely the good and valuable intentions of the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp. I also hope that I have done rather better than I did in Committee in persuading her as to why the Government do not believe that this body is necessary. I therefore hope that she will consider withdrawing her amendment.
Baroness Sharp of Guildford: My Lords, I thank the Minister for his further limp reply. I did not expect that he would go much further on this issue, but the fact remains that there is a need for such a body at a
national level. If the Minister had received as many e-mails as I have received from parent governor representatives, he would recognise that they would like to have a national body to represent them.I thank the noble Lord, Lord Peston, for coming up with a valuable suggestion. As he rightly said, there is the great danger of having government placemen on a body that is paid for by the Government. My main objection to a great many of the bodies that have been set up by the Government is that they are quangos and the people who sit on them are nominated and they are frequently placemen. The notion that we might try to use governor representatives to form a national council but try to get a body such as Rowntree or Leverhulme to help fund it is a good one and I shall feed it back to those who have prompted me to make such representations.
I believe that we shall get no further if we try to push the Government on the matter. I regret that as I believe that we need to have a consumer voice. The problem at the moment is that it is divided. I was at one time a member of the national executive of CASE. We constituted a strong voice but we could never claim to be totally representative as we constituted a particular group. The National Governors' Council represents parent governors, but many governors are not parent governors. The National Confederation of Parent Teacher Associations represents parent teacher associations, but it has its own agenda. I recognise that each of those bodies is consulted on occasions but that is by no means always the case. What is needed is a body whom the Government can consult when they want to consult parents. There is a void in that regard at the moment which needs filling. However, as I say, I take on board the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Peston. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 34 [Staffing of community, voluntary controlled, community special and maintained nursery schools]:
Baroness Walmsley moved Amendment No. 57:
- Page 20, line 22, leave out from "under" to end of line 24 and insert "the direction of the head teacher of a school to which this section applies is to be employed by the local education authority under a contract of employment."
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, in moving Amendment No. 57 I wish to speak also to Amendment No. 62.
These amendments seek to clarify on the face of the Bill that a member of staff, teaching or otherwise, employed at a maintained school or a voluntary-aided school working under the direction of the head teacher must have a contract of employment either with the LEA or with the governing body in the case of foundation or voluntary-aided schools. As my noble friend Lady Sharp pointed out in Committee, the Bill as it stands states only that there should be a contract of employment at a school; it does not say with whom. She commented that we seek to make the distinction between those who are under the direction of the head and have a contract with the LEA or governing body and those who have a contract with someone else such
as an agency and are therefore ultimately under its direction as employees. The agency may transfer the day-to-day direction of the member of staff to the head teacher, but ultimately they are employees of that agency in terms of employment law.I see no reason why making this matter clear would restrict the flexibility of schools in terms of sharing staff from other local schools, or place "unhelpful limitations" on schools as the Minister suggested in her reply in Committee. That is because the amendment does not insist that all staff working at the school should be employees of the LEA or governing body but it does seek to make a distinction about whether the head is directing a subordinate member of staff or managing the engagement or programme of work of a self-employed contractor or agency employee. If the staffing of schools is to become more flexible and more complex, I see it as vital that this detail is made perfectly clear. I hope that now that the Minister has had more time to consider these amendments she will accept them as being constructive and in the interests of good employment practice. I beg to move.
5.45 p.m.
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, this is a large group of amendments. I wish to speak to Amendments Nos. 58, 59, 60, 63, 64, 65 and 66.
Amendment No. 58 concerns subsection (2) of Clause 34. Subsection (2) states:
- "Any teacher or other member of staff who is appointed to work under a contract of employment at a school to which this section applies is to be employed by the local education authority".
- "to schools in any category set out in subsection (1) which have failed to satisfy OFSTED in relation to their general standards of education and school management".
I turn to my Amendments Nos. 59, 60, 63, 64, 65 and 66. Amendments Nos. 63, 64, 65 and 66 are the same as Amendments Nos. 59 and 60 respectively. However, Amendments Nos. 59 and 60 refer to community schools, voluntary controlled schools, community special schools and maintained nursery schools, whereas Amendments Nos. 63, 64, 65 and 66 refer to voluntary-aided schools and foundation special schools. We seek to make absolutely clear and beyond doubt what we are talking about when referring to staff who work at a school otherwise than under a contract.
I believe that we are talking about people who work at a school who are not under a direct contract of the school but are either contracted to a third party; that is, an agency, or may be volunteers, in which case they will come under a contract. Sometimes people who volunteer in a school are comprised of parents or friends who may help to teach children to read, for
example. They usually have nothing like a formal contract but nevertheless they are working in a school. I seek to make the position explicit by inserting the words "direct" and "with the school". I give an example of the wording that would apply if one of my amendments were accepted. Subsection (5)(b) of Clause 35 would state:
- "make provision with respect to the appointment of teachers and other staff to work at a school otherwise than under a direct contract of employment with the school".
- "the appointment of teachers and other staff to work at a school otherwise than under a contract of employment".
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