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Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, I hope that I may reply, first, to Amendments Nos. 59, 60 and 63 to 66. I want to try to remove any misunderstanding about the meaning of these provisions which are related to school staff who work otherwise than under contracts of employment.
These provisions refer to people who are working at or for a school but who are not employed by the local education authority or the governing body depending on the school category. They may be paid by an agency or some other establishment, educational or otherwise, and work under contracts of employment with those bodies to provide services at the school. Alternatively, they may be self-employed and work under a contract for services at a school, but not under a contract of employment.
We want governing bodies to be able to continue to engage or appoint such staff, and to provide for regulations to make provision for the appointment of such persons. This will make clear that schools are able to make use of staff resources in this way outside the normal employment arrangements with either the local education authority or the governing body, and will give scope to ensure that schools follow good practice in these matters. Examples of such people are supply teachers; cleaners who work for an agency; kitchen staff who may work for an agency that provides school meals in a school or technical staff brought in to look after computers in a school.
These are technical matters and we have had to use legal terminology in drafting these provisions. In referring to contracts of employment, the addition of the words "with the school" would introduce confusion and be inaccurate. The words may appear to clarify the meaning, but contracts of employment in this context are either with the LEA or the governing body, depending on the category of school concerned. The governing bodies of the categories of schools under Clause 34 have traditionally never employed staff and cannot do so. The role of employer is undertaken by the local education authority. The governing bodies of the categories of schools under Clause 35 on the other hand do employ staff directly.
We do not propose to change those arrangements. However, schools are free to seek to change categories, if the governing body wishes it, for greater or lesser autonomy in those matters. We propose to continue to
provide for that diversity in staffing arrangements and at the same time ensure scope for schools to innovate and use a variety of resources in delivering education. I hope that that clarifies the scope of these provisions sufficiently for the noble Baroness to feel able to withdraw the amendments.I turn to Amendments Nos. 57 and 62. As noble Lords said, we debated almost identical amendments in Committee. I have considered these amendments and I still believe that they would severely limit the ability of schools to use staff resources flexibly. According to the amendments, as I have explained, all staff would have to work under a contract of employment with either the local education authority or the governing body, depending on the category of school concerned.
We believe that that would place greater limitations on the scope of schools to use a variety of staffing methods to deliver education. We want to free schools so that they may innovate by using different ways of delivering education. These amendments would discourage and prevent schools from sharing staff or using expertise from other institutions. An example would be the use of further education lecturers or those delivering education via information and communications technology facilities. I hope the noble Baroness appreciates that that would not help schools to deal with the challenges or take advantage of the opportunities that the future may present.
In a previous amendment, the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, raised the matter of the proposed EU directive on agency workers and its effect on the position of agency supply teachers in schools. I have written to the noble Baroness about that, and I refer noble Lords to the copy of the letter which I have placed in the Library. On that basis, I hope that the noble Baroness will feel able to withdraw those amendments.
I turn to Amendment No. 58. I make it clear that local education authorities have traditionally employed staff in the categories of school to which this clause relates. The governing bodies concerned have never undertaken the role of employer. As I said, they are not empowered to employ staff. I refer noble Lords to paragraph 3(7) of Schedule 1, which replicates the existing provisions under the School Standards and Framework Act 1998.
Over many years schools have had opportunities to change the categories and acquire the scope to employ staff directly. That option will continue. But the large majority of schools have chosen to continue with the local education authority as the employer of staff. Many schools whose governing bodies employ staff directly use their local education authorities to employ non-teaching staff. In our view, it is then clear that local education authorities play a fundamental role in employing staff in state schools.
This amendment suggests that local education authorities should employ staff only if schools are failing. That would leave a big gap to fill. If this amendment were introduced, it would be very disruptive and damaging to education. The majority of people who work in schools would overnight be placed
in an employment limbo. Their existing contracts of employment with the education authorities would be undermined. Clear arrangements would need to be in place for contracts of employment to be passed on to another employer.If the intention is that governing bodies should assume the role of employer, the question to ask is what evidence exists to show that that is what those schools want. No one is forcing those schools to stay with local education authority employment arrangements. If they wish to, they can leave now. But all schools must have the freedom to choose what is best for them and to choose the arrangements that suit their particular local circumstances.
Practice has shown that the role of local education authorities in employing school staff is a widely valued and freely accepted element of our education service. I therefore ask the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, to reconsider the consequence of this amendment and agree to withdraw it.
Baroness Walmsley: My Lords, I thank the Minister for her clarification of these matters. I should like to consult with the NUT whose concerns I have expressed in moving these amendments. Meanwhile, I beg leave to withdraw.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Baroness Blatch had given notice of her intention to move Amendment No. 58:
- Page 20, line 24, at end insert—
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I accept that the LEA has traditionally been the employer, but in tabling Amendment No. 58 I was trying, perhaps rather feebly, to extend the right of the schools to employ themselves. I totally accept the arguments put by the Minister. I shall not press the amendment, nor shall I return to it at a later stage of the Bill. However, the Minister has not spoken to any of my other amendments in this group, Amendments Nos. 59, 60, 63, 64, 65 and 66, and I wonder whether the Minister intends to reply to them, because I have in fact spoken to them.
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, I was saying that I had spoken to Amendments Nos. 59, 60, 63, 64, 65 and 66, but that the Minister has not responded to them.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, I should make it clear that I replied in one of my groups to Amendments Nos. 59, 60, 63 and 66. I have checked that I responded to all amendments.
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, I apologise that I did not pick that up. I thought that it was a general answer on staffing arrangements. Having listened to what the
I accept that individual third parties, such as window cleaners, caterers and plumbers, who come into a school to work, will not be under a direct contract with the school. Nevertheless, they will—
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I am not quite sure whether the noble Baroness is moving the amendment at the present time or replying to the original debate, on which she has already spoken.
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, if it is the only way in which I can speak to it, I move Amendment No. 59:
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I apologise for getting the procedure wrong. It was because I did not realise that the Minister had in fact referred to all my amendments.
I return to the notion of a third party, who would not be under a direct contract with the school but would nevertheless be under a contract with his or her own employer, or, in the case of a window cleaner, perhaps self-employed—the employer in turn being under a contract to the school—coming to work on school premises to either service computer equipment, to clean the windows, to feed the children or to lay the carpets. Referring to subsection (5)(b), I am making the distinction between a teacher who is under a direct contract with the school and another person who works at the school but is not under a direct contract with the school.
It is a question of making that explicit. I am not sure that I have understood the Minister's response. Had I been in the Minister's shoes, I would at least have courteously repeated my point, given that I had a total misunderstanding. I thought that the Minister was simply refusing to answer. I saw her nodding her head and asking the Deputy Speaker to get on with it.
"( ) Subsection (2) shall only apply to schools in any category set out in subsection (1) which have failed to satisfy OFSTED in relation to their general standards of education and school management."
Page 20, line 37, after second "a" insert "direct"
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