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Lord Hardy of Wath: My Lords, I agree entirely with the point that the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig, has expressed. The noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, presented his amendment as a means of securing from Ministers a pledge that there would be a debate. Unfortunately, we have already had the debate in large measure this evening. We shall need to have a serious debate because there are various sides to this story, as the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig, has indicated.

My regret in relation to the amendment is that debate on the order presented an annual opportunity for the House to pay tribute to the Armed Forces for their work over the past year. Over that time, our Armed Forces have served in various and very different ways both the country and the cause of international peace and stability with success and distinction. I believe that in large measure the amendment would have deprived us of an opportunity to offer words of tribute. I hope that the House will recall that the order is normally something of a formality. But the formality should at least provide an opportunity for tribute to be paid without qualification, and I hope that the Minister will recognise that.

It is perhaps more appropriate for this House to offer comments. A few moments ago I counted up and calculated that, of the Peers present in the Chamber during the debate, approximately 20 have served in the Armed Forces. I believe that if there were a debate in the other place now, one would be lucky to find more than two or three Members present. Therefore, it is perhaps particularly appropriate that words of commendation are expressed during this debate.

Lord Maginnis of Drumglass: My Lords, I had not intended to speak in this debate, simply because I do not have the experience of people such as my noble and gallant friend Lord Craig of Radley and I do not have the background information that Ministers and former Secretaries of State for Northern Ireland have. However, for a considerable number of years I served

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as a commissioned officer and I suppose that I could claim to have been on active service continuously for 11 years. With the exception of those who flew with the Royal Air Force, I believe that I could safely claim that, within your Lordships' House, I have spent more hours in the air in helicopters than most.

What disturbs me about this evening's debate is that the constraints that the processes and procedures of this House place on the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, whose dignified presentation of his case must have impressed us all, are such that we cannot move forward as expeditiously as we should on this extremely serious issue.

As someone who worked for many years with those who fly our helicopters, and who did so under very difficult circumstances in Northern Ireland, the one thing to which I can bear personal witness is the competence and discipline of those people. I have always found it difficult to believe that not one—so often I flew in a helicopter with one pilot—but, in this case, two experienced pilots could have made the type of mistake that it appears to many of us was summarily decided that they made. That is unreasonable.

Again, I have the disadvantage of having no technical knowledge in terms of aircraft and helicopters. But, like your Lordships, I can read the reports of faults that occur in Chinook helicopters. Hence, from experience, I would deduce that the cause of that horrific crash was far less likely to be pilot error than some external problem. I hope that your Lordships recognise that many of those killed in that helicopter were acquaintances and friends of mine. Therefore, I should like to see a proper, considered response to the tragic event of 1994.

I heard the Minister caution what the outcome would be if the amendment were carried tonight. I understand that. I would not be at all desperate for this matter not to be pressed to a Division in so far as my experience of military life is that discipline is not a diktat but a culture within our armed services. I do not believe that it is beyond the competence of the House, if the Government remained adamant that the amendment would delay the process of justice in respect of the Chinook disaster, to ensure that the Government returned to the House long before August to put right what I believe is wrong. The Government could also bring forward new legislation—so that there would be no crisis within the armed services.

We have a responsibility not to add up the number of Ministers who have remained solid in their support of the Ministry of Defence and the Government's attitude but to examine the breadth of available experience. I am envious of members of the Select Committee having the opportunity to examine and weigh up the facts.

I shall not incite the House to a form of rebellion. Perhaps my military service makes me recognise the need for things to move forward with a degree of order. However, I implore the Minister, when he responds, to remember the many people involved—not just the two

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pilots and their families. In so far as the pilots stand condemned by their own service, I feel most for them—but 26 others were involved in that disaster. Their families also deserve some sort of comfort from knowing that the executive is not hard nosed but has compassion. I ask the Minister to remember that this evening.

Lord Bruce of Donington: My Lords, the House will be grateful to the Minister for giving it a preview of the various actions that the Government propose in regard to consolidation of various Acts that now exist separately—which he did with some force. On the basis of my experience of the Palace of Westminster over the past 50 years, I thought that the Minister rather overdid it. Everybody knows perfectly well that if the Government wish to get through an Army Act—whatever happens to the Motion—they would anyway. The Government have the machinery to do so—even extra parliamentary machinery. The Government have the Prime Minister sitting in the seat of active power—and he does more or less what he likes anyway. Anyone who thinks that the whole future of the Army, Air Force and Naval Discipline Acts will be affected by the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, is looking through the wrong end of a telescope. Such a thing cannot be conceived and would not happen. I expect that the Minister himself knows very well that, whatever happens, the new Act will go forward and the entire Armed Forces would not be paralysed. One can overdo scare nonsense too much.

We are really talking about a question of law. I draw your Lordships' attention to the rule in force at the time of the accident—which is to be found at paragraph 13 on page 7 of the report:

"The RAF manual of flight safety AP 3207 published by the Inspectorate of Flight Safety and in force at the time of the accident provided in paragraph 9 of Annex G to Chapter 8 that 'only in cases in which there is absolutely no doubt whatsoever should deceased air crew be found negligent'".

To me, that statement is clear.

With controversy raging in varying degrees over the past eight years, according to the pressure applied by the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, the cause of the accident has been a matter of dispute. The efforts made to ascertain the truth over the past eight years mean that there is already doubt. That is implicit even in tonight's debate, in which different views are being expressed. It is clear that there are already grounds for reasonable doubt. The existence and continuation of debate on the subject over eight years proves that the matter is far from settled.

I shall forebear going into the legal aspects, which have anyway been dealt with by one of the finest lawyers that this country has ever known—the noble and learned Lord, Lord Ackner. I prefer to take an entirely different view. I have always been under the impression, since being in practice and in the Armed Forces for six years—with some flying experience—that an Englishman's word is his bond. It is not necessarily a question of law. Progressively over the years, this country has lost that sense that an

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Englishman's word is his bond, if something else exists. That is the kind of situation that I, as a Briton, cannot tolerate. There must be some regaining of the sense of honour—making due allowance for the views of some of one's friends and political associates, who may disagree. In the finality, that is where the role lies.

The time will return, hopefully shortly, when an Englishman's word is generally recognised—not as a matter of law but of normal practice. For that reason, I hope that the efforts of the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, meet with success. They certainly have my support and those of all people who have any regard for what has hitherto been regarded in this country as normal and civilised behaviour, lived in accordance with ordinary moral principles.

Baroness Park of Monmouth: My Lords, I warmly support everything that my noble and learned friend, the noble and learned Lord on the Cross Benches and the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, said. Precisely because we all greatly love and respect the Armed Forces, for whom we often speak when they cannot speak for themselves, it is essential that the Government should not give even the appearance of dragging their feet and kicking the debate, practically speaking, into the distance. Not only noble Lords, but also the men and women of the armed services, will note with deep regret the Government's failure to give as early an answer as possible to such a major and unequivocal conclusion as the report furnishes.

I feel that any further delay is wholly unacceptable. The Government say that we will have a debate by the end of the summer. That will prolong the whole process and it will be November before we can debate it. Already eight years have passed and soon it will be nine. I beg the Government to think hard before they behave in that way.

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