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Lord Chalfont: My Lords, I shall be brief. I said that this amendment was not intended to disrupt or undermine the Royal Air Force or any other part of the Armed Forces. Indeed, I have been somewhat resentful of some of the suggestions made that this amendment has in some way prevented us from paying tribute to the Armed Forces as though it were a formality that we had to go through.

I served for 25 years in the Armed Forces and I yield to no one in my regard and admiration for them. I am willing to repeat that admiration at any time—not just as a formality during a debate. The reason why I tabled the amendment was to point out that Parliament is not a talking shop—although it may have sounded like it tonight—to be ignored by the Air Staff or by the Government. Sometimes people should be reminded that Parliament has teeth and may sometimes bite. It is not going to bite on this occasion, but there may be occasions in the future when it might.

I shall not take up any of the arguments that have been made tonight for obvious reasons of time, except to make two points. I want to make a small point about the date of the report. There is not much argument about it because it is printed on the report—ordered to be printed on 31st January. As far as I am concerned that is when the report was issued. However, we will not argue about five days when we have already waited this length of time for the Ministry of Defence response.

My only other point was made also by my noble and gallant friend Lord Craig of Radley. He mentioned the number of Ministers who supported the view of the air marshals. I can tell him that a number of Ministers from the Ministry of Defence over recent years have personally told me that they have some doubt about it. Perhaps I can remind your Lordships' House that the Secretary of State at the time has said publicly that if he had known then what he knows now, he would never have allowed the verdict to stand.

The debate has done to some extent what I intended it to do. I found no other way of achieving that end. As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mayhew, said, it was a device, whether or not ingenious I do not know, but the only one I could think of which would point to the fact that we have now been waiting since either 1st January or 5th February for a response from the Government. We have not had one.

In passing perhaps I may say that if it is only now that they are seeking the advice of counsel on the matter of whether there is any doubt and what the legal implications of that are, I wish that the air marshals had taken counsel's advice before coming to their decision.

However, this is an issue which your Lordships will undoubtedly wish to visit when eventually there has been a chance to consider the Government's response to the Select Committee's report. I regret that we shall

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not have an opportunity for debate before the Summer Recess. But we shall at least have an opportunity to consider a Statement, which is moving us some way towards what I hope will be a happy conclusion. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

On Question, Motion agreed to.

Education Bill

9.16 p.m.

Further consideration of amendments on Report resumed on Clause 44.

Lord Peston moved Amendment No. 81:

Page 29, line 16, after "prescribed" insert—

"( ) advising all admission authorities on how to provide a non-selective school system,"

The noble Lord said: My Lords, having lost a fair amount of time, your Lordships will probably prefer me to be as brief as I can. In moving Amendment No. 81, standing in the names of my noble friend Lady David and myself, perhaps I may immediately thank the Minister not merely for answering my question on what the membership of the forums would be, but actually handing me a piece of paper containing all the information.

That piece of paper also contained a very interesting sentence which may affect how I organise the next few years. It says that the chairman of the forum could, if it so decided, be an independent person. I am certainly an independent person and what I need to do is find a forum that is looking for a possible chairman because it looks very interesting. I just mention that en passant.

The Minister said in terms, at col. 212 of Hansard on 14th May, that,

"as an individual as well as a Minister, philosophically [I] do not support selection by ability at 11".

Again at col. 637 of Hansard on 11th March of this year she said,

"I am pro-education, pro-equality and pro the comprehensive system".

I can find no better sentence to convey my own views on this matter. Though I shall not weary your Lordships with other quotations, that is certainly also the view of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State who said in terms that she supports the comprehensive schools.

The question before us, therefore, is why there is so much selection in our education system, some of which is overt and a great deal of which is covert. Why is it that some of us are so worried that selection will increase with the introduction of all the new forms of school that have been placed before us in the past few years?

When we think of selection by ability at 11, we are not looking at something that is new or something about which we are completely ignorant. This subject has been around a long time and has been studied in great depth. It is no longer a matter of anecdote or

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anything else. It is something that education researchers know about. The considered view is that selection at 11-plus is socially divisive. Much worse than that, it damages individual self-esteem. Worse still, it places unreasonable pressures on pupils and teachers in primary schools. The noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, talked about disruption, which she thinks is due to the ballots, but it is known overwhelmingly that the 11-plus exam disrupts teaching and learning at a very important stage in the primary curriculum.

We also know, as a matter of research, not of anecdote, that because of the dynamics of child development, the selection at 11-plus not only of itself does not work properly, it reinforces rather than reduces inequality of opportunity.

The worst thing about selection at 11 is that although we all have experience of failure in life, happily a few of us do not have that experience until we are quite a bit older. Many of us campaign for the abolition of selection at 11 because it is appalling to inflict failure on a young child. When I was 11 an enormous number of children were immediately branded as failures. I know that we all experience failure, but for it to happen at 11 is cruelty beyond acceptability.

That is the background to my position and it leads to at least one suggestion, which is all that my amendment is about. My noble friend Lady David and I, along with others, think that an admission forum could, first, look at what is happening within the area on selection, and so on. Secondly, it could advise the admission authorities on how to set up a genuinely non-selective school system.

This is a minor proposal. It is not my way of saying that we should get rid of selection because it is too cruel. The amendment is simply saying that we should use these forums in an advisory capacity but in a way that would be immensely helpful. It would lead to local debate and bring out these issues in a balanced and interesting way that would lead to action.

That is the reason for tabling the amendments. I beg to move.

Baroness Blatch: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Peston, would expect me to rise to the bait, but I shall be brief.

I would be impressed if I thought that the argument was all about the age at which selection takes place. The noble Lord concentrated a great deal on the inappropriateness of selection at 11. If that were the issue, we could have a serious debate about the appropriate age for selection on the basis of ability. But I think that the noble Lord, Lord Peston, would fundamentally disagree with selection on the basis of ability at any age.

Lord Peston: No, my Lords, That is not my view and it never has been.

Baroness Blatch: My Lords, then I am impressed. There is a serious debate to be had. As we know, in the independent sector, selection takes place at 13-plus,

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rather than 11-plus. There may be some hope in the idea of a debate on the issue. Certainly there is selection at age 16 and there is a great deal of selection at age 18 on the basis of ability. That is how people move into the world of tertiary education.

My short intervention has at least elicited from the noble Lord something on which we can build in future debates.

Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, I shall confine myself to replying to the amendment. As my noble friend Lord Peston said, the amendment would require admission forums to advise all admission authorities on how to provide a non-selective system. We simply do not see it as part of the job of admission forums to promote specific changes of character in schools, or in local education authorities.

Noble Lords are well aware that we do not believe in selection by ability, but we do believe that children with a particular talent—for example, in the arts or in sport—should have the opportunity to develop that talent. A small proportion of schools select by aptitude, but most do not. Of course, selection by aptitude of a minority of talented students will occur only where a school is oversubscribed and the oversubscription criteria will be applied.

I agree that forums should advise on how well particular admission arrangements work, including selective arrangements. We expect admission authorities to have regard to that advice. However, it is for admission authorities to determine admission arrangements. We believe that such arrangements should be a matter for local decision. Existing provisions, and those that we are introducing under this Bill, are designed to encourage local discussion with a view to reaching a consensus on admission arrangements that will work in the best interests of local parents.

We already have in place a framework for local consultation on proposed admission arrangements, with the possibility of objection to the adjudicator if admission authorities consider that particular admission arrangements determined by others are undesirable. Under the provisions of the Bill we are also strengthening objection arrangements and extending them so that community and voluntary controlled school governors may also object to admission arrangements at foundation and voluntary aided schools.

I hope that noble Lords will agree that the provisions set out in this Bill, together with the existing framework, will enable local partners to agree a local system for admissions that will work well for local parents and children. I hope that my noble friend will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

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