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Lord Peston: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for her response. There is no difficulty about my withdrawing the amendment, but I am disappointed by her reply because I thought that my noble friend Lady David and I had put forward an amendment that could make a constructive contribution to the role of the admission forums.
Perhaps I may respond a little to the remarks made by the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch. Selection has to take place—as, indeed, does choice—at various stages in one's education and career. The point is when. The research evidence available overwhelmingly tells us two things: first, that we should do this as late as possible; and, secondly, that we should always ensure that systems exist in order to rectify errors. Let us take, for example, 16 as an age for the purpose of this argument. Someone might be given certain advice at that age; indeed, I was. I was told that I would never be a hot-shot pure mathematician and that I ought to do something else in the sixth form.
We have all had that sort of experience. Such comments were made in the form of advice, and we took it because that was how we reacted to our teachers. However, there was never any sense of failure involved. It was not a matter of grading us, or telling us that we were worthless; it was advising us what we could do. But there always existed a way—in the case of pure maths, for me, it did exist—of discovering that one had received the wrong advice, and means through which one could put it right.
The real point here is not to say that we should never select, because life is full of selections. On Friday morning 11 young Englishmen will be selected to play for England, while another 11 will be told "You're not good enough". I am sure that they will be very disappointed. But selection is of the essence in the case of a football team. The point about education is that selection is precisely not of the essence; indeed, it is exactly the opposite of what we want at the age of 11.
If, in due course, the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, who is more influential in this House than I am, could manage to secure us a good debate on selection, I should willingly take part in it. We could then discuss the whole philosophy of it, as well as the practicalities. However, I promised to be brief in my remarks. I shall not, therefore, pursue the matter ad nauseam. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 81A and 82 not moved.]
[Amendment No. 82A had been withdrawn from the Marshalled List.]
Clause 45 [Admission numbers]:
Baroness Ashton of Upholland moved Amendment No. 83:
- Page 29, line 39, leave out "In" and insert "For"
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, in moving this amendment, I shall speak also to Amendments Nos. 84 to 87. These amendments fulfil the promise that I made to noble Lords in Committee to return on Report with our own proposals to address the concerns of those who represent state boarding schools. We share their concern to safeguard the long-term viability of maintained boarding schools, but also think it most important that all schools make clear to parents, in their published admission arrangements, how many
places can be applied for and in what circumstances. These amendments, as now drafted, will achieve both objectives.They will allow maintained boarding schools to have separate admission arrangements, and, therefore, separate admission numbers, for their day and boarding places respectively. The changes already made in Clause 45 of the Bill, replacing standard numbers with admission numbers facilitate that. If a school takes that route, day-place applicants would be ineligible for boarding places, and vice versa.
So, for example, where a parent expresses a preference for a day place at a school that offers boarding accommodation, the admission authority could refuse that child admission if all the day places up to the published admission number have already been allocated to higher priority day-place applicants, even though there may still be boarding places available. We believe that this approach will help schools to keep places available for those who specifically want their child to board, whether during the course of a normal admission round or later. And parents would know where they stand.
However, where boarding school places remain empty in the relevant year group, there is nothing to prevent admission authorities from accepting a greater number of day pupils, or vice versa.
I understand that the State Boarding Information Service welcomes the amendment and is grateful for our recognition of the importance of the state boarding sector. I hope, therefore, that noble Lords will accept the amendment. I beg to move.
9.30 p.m.
Lord Lucas: My Lords, I very much hope that the noble Lord, Lord Peston, will join me in opposing Amendment No. 87. It reads:
- "References in this section to the determination of any number include references to the determination of zero as that number".
What is wrong with zero? Why not have one or two or 59 in the amendment? Zero is a number. It has one or two interesting properties that other numbers do not. But it is a perfectly ordinary number. That reinforces my prejudice against the Civil Service. Presumably it is full of classicists and just because the Greeks and the Romans did not have a zero they think that zero has something improper about it. It is a perfectly good Hindi concept. It was brought to us through the Arabs and the Italians in the 12th to 13th century and has been part of our mathematics for a long time. It is a number. Why are we trying to define it especially as a number as though there were something odd about it?
The noble Lord, Lord Peston, was quite right at our previous session to point out the logic that "or" includes "and", although of course ordinary English has this odd concept "and/or" as if it does not. Legislation manages to avoid that. I really do not think
that we should commit a similar fallacy just because there are not enough mathematicians in the Department for Education and Skills.
Lord Peston: My Lords, perhaps I may say to the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, that I read the amendment and assumed not that the draftsman or the civil servants were mad or ignorant but that there must be some very clever legal point. Often when I do not understand something, the lawyers go back to primitive times when—the noble Lord will be aware—people had great difficulty with zero as a number. It is special because it is the only number that can be added to another number leaving the other number still the same. That troubled people enormously.
However, I decided not to speak on the amendment simply because I do not want some smart alec advising the Minister to get up and say that if I only knew about legal drafting, I would know how important this is.
Lord Lucas: My Lords, I am younger and more foolish than the noble Lord, Lord Peston.
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, I hesitate to get into this argument because I do not claim to be a mathematician, but I thought that if one added a zero to a one it became 10, and that that was a different number from one. That is as far as I intend to go in intervening between my noble friend and the noble Lord, Lord Peston.
I want to thank the Minister most warmly. I argued the case for these amendments on the last day of Committee. The noble Baroness gave her word that she would go away and think about the matter. I know that STABIS, the organisation representing state boarding schools, is particularly grateful for the work of the noble Baroness. I want it recorded that I am grateful for what has happened. I accept these amendments—zero or no zero.
Baroness Sharp of Guildford: My Lords, I, too, in Committee tabled an amendment about boarding schools. I know that, as the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, has just mentioned, STABIS is delighted with the amendments. They answer its case precisely. It is extremely grateful. I thank the Minister very much for doing this for us. We are very grateful.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, I am grateful to your Lordships and delighted that we have been able to table the amendments. I must tell the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, that the Bill manager is a mathematician and that the noble Lord is absolutely right that it would cancel conventional drafting if we were to do that in any other way. I shall now sit down.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland moved Amendments Nos. 84 to 87:
- Page 30, line 2, leave out from "greater)" to end of line 5 and insert "there is substituted—
Page 30, line 12, at end insert—
"(5) No prejudice shall be taken to arise for the purposes of subsection (3)(a) from the admission to a maintained school in a school year of a number of pupils in a relevant age group which does not exceed the number determined under section 89 as the number of pupils in that age group that it is intended to admit to the school in that year; but this subsection does not apply if the conditions set out in subsection (5A) are met in relation to the school and the school year.
(5A) Those conditions are—
(a) that the school is one at which boarding accommodation is provided for pupils; and
(b) that the determination under section 89 by the admission authority of the admission arrangements which are to apply for that year includes the determinations mentioned in paragraphs (a) and (b) of section 89A(1A).
(5B) Where the conditions set out in subsection (5A) are met in relation to a maintained school and a school year, no prejudice shall be taken to arise for the purposes of subsection (3)(a) from either of the following—
(a) the admission to the school in that year as boarders of a number of pupils in a relevant age group which does not exceed the number determined under section 89 as the number of pupils in that age group that it is intended to admit to the school in that year as boarders;
(b) the admission to the school in that year otherwise than as boarders of a number of pupils in a relevant age group which does not exceed the number determined under section 89 as the number of pupils in that age group that it is intended to admit to the school in that year otherwise than as boarders.""
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