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Lord Lucas: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for that reply. I feel that she and I are disagreeing in some measure, not on the substance of the approach but on the style, and on whether this should be in primary or secondary legislation. The noble Baroness has said a good deal that I should like to consider. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 98B to 98E not moved.]
Baroness Blatch moved Amendment No. 99:
- After Clause 49, insert the following new clause—
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I return to my bid to extend parenting orders. I have read very carefully what the Minister said in Committee about parenting orders. In that debate, she said that the department consulted last autumn on extending their use. She went on to say:
I am sorry that I did not pick up on this opportunity earlier, as this is a God-given opportunity to make that provision. We all know how difficult it is to get a legislative opportunity. All we would have to do is convert my amendment to cover children rather than parents. I simply wonder whether the Minister would consider making that conversion on Third Reading. I believe that there would be support on all sides of the House for the provision.
We should take advantage of this opportunity. It is not uncommon to use one Bill to amend another. It certainly would be appropriate to make the provision in this Bill as this is legislation about parents and children. This is a very good opportunity to make the change. Moreover, if the provision did appear in a criminal justice Bill, it would appear way at the back as a miscellaneous item and bear little relation to the main thrust of that legislation.
The substance of the Minister's case against my amendment was that—having consulted on parenting orders for violent parents as opposed to violent pupils—various statutes already provide for remedies against violent parents, and all that is needed is more effective enforcement. I certainly agree that much more could be done on enforcing the law. When it comes to enforcement, I believe that not only schools and education authorities but even neighbours living close to schools are remiss. I also agree that the law
Nevertheless, I make another appeal to the Minister to consider extending parenting orders. I was not thinking of parenting orders as in any way a substitute for those Acts. That legislation will remain on the statute book as a remedy to deal with violence by parents. However, there is a case for adding to the number of remedies. We should extend parenting orders because, almost as night follows day, a parent who is violent on school premises is almost certain to be a pretty awful parent. We know the scenario. The parent goes to the school because a child has been badly dealt with, loses his temper, thumps the teacher, or runs amok and damages a lot of property out of simple rage. We know that the chances are that the children of that parent are going to suffer pretty miserably when they get home. I think that there is a real issue of vulnerability in relation to the children.
I am not arguing that this provision should replace current laws which are there to be used if a parent is wilfully disruptive, damaging and violent. However, as I said, I think that a parent who is violent on school premises will not be a good parent. I therefore believe that there is a very strong case to extend parenting orders as an addition to the remedies mentioned by the Minister. I believe that there is a very strong case for supporting my amendment. I beg to move.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, we shall indeed examine the issue of converting parenting orders to cover pupils. I am not sure whether that is technically possible, but I thank the noble Baroness for the suggestion. I shall come back to the point. Obviously, we are at one with the noble Baroness in wanting to ensure that parents who are violent or abusive in schools are dealt with. I agree absolutely with the noble Baroness's central point. I accept that a small number of parents are violent and abusive towards school staff. I share the feeling of all noble Lords that that simply cannot be tolerated. It is our duty to ensure that we use the full force of the law to tackle the problem. I am absolutely sure that we are all agreed on that.
However, the question is whether we should extend parenting orders to tackle the problem, as proposed in the amendment. I fully understand all the points that the noble Baroness made. However, let us be clear what parenting orders are because that explains why, in the light of consultation, we now believe that extending parenting orders is not the right approach.
A parenting order is designed to help a person better to manage their disruptive child. An order typically requires a parent to attend parenting classes. The point of the parenting order is to help a parent to control their child better. It does not concern a parent being a bad or disruptive parent; it concerns a parent's needs better to manage their disruptive child.
Although I can see what the noble Baroness is getting at, the amendment is not the right way to tackle the matter. I am of the view that children who behave
So the question is whether we have the legal sanctions in place or not. I believe that we do. The noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, indicated a number of ways in which we can bring the weight of the law to bear in such situations. Following the consultation, and having decided that parenting orders are not suitable for aggressive parents, we are taking vigorous steps to make sure that the existing sanctions are better known. We are urging schools and LEAs to pursue the appropriate measures in every single instance of parental violence, threat or abuse in school.
We hope that we have sent a clear message across the education service in recent months that we shall not tolerate that kind of behaviour. There is no excuse for parents or anyone else ever to assault a teacher. We are urging schools and education authorities to take all proper action to protect teaching staff. Those who assault teachers must be prosecuted.
As part of our drive to deal robustly with the problem, we have just recently consulted a wide range of organisations about our approach on the matter including the National Association of Head Teachers, the Secondary Heads Association, all the teacher unions and the Association of Chief Police Officers. They share with us the wish to get out the strongest possible messages and to ensure the highest level of support for schools. We know that, as employers, LEAs will want to act decisively, including pursuing prosecutions, where teachers are threatened or assaulted in the course of their duties. And we are pressing them to do so.
I understand the noble Baroness's concerns. As I say, parenting orders are designed to deal with disruptive children, not parents. I know that the whole House is united in agreeing that our teachers and staff deserve the fullest protection. But I believe that our efforts will be best directed to ensuring that we enforce
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, I understand much of what the noble Baroness said. However, I am sorry that she does not consider that there is a case for extending parenting orders and using them as an additional measure to the measures that are already in place.
I wish to make two points. First, I hope that some thought will be given to extending parenting orders for violent pupils. It seems to me that this is a God given opportunity to use the Bill to fulfil that promise to teachers. Secondly, I am beginning almost to despair as regards this matter. The distress among teachers, and the pressure on me from the education establishment to extend parenting orders to deal with the matter we are discussing, have been very great. I despair of the lack of knowledge as regards what can be done. Teachers feel vulnerable. They are being thumped and injured by violent parents in the classroom.
I wonder whether there is a case for teachers to take action against a school, or against an LEA, for its reluctance to take protective measures on behalf of the teacher. I am not quite sure who, in a particular incident, is responsible for taking action on the part of the teacher. Some people are very fearful of taking action in case they end up in court and receive very large legal bills. If our teachers are to be protected, they need to know that they can look to those who are responsible for them, such as their line managers, their head teachers and/or the LEAs—we know from earlier debates that the LEAs are the employers—for that protection.
I do not believe that there is anything between us in terms of the aims and objectives that we want to achieve. However, I shall give further consideration to those matters before the next stage of the Bill, as I know the Minister will. Meanwhile, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
"PARENTAL BEHAVIOUR
(1) If a parent or guardian of a child registered at a maintained school behaves in a manner which—
(a) exhibits violence towards a member of staff of that school, whether or not on the premises of the school, or
(b) disrupts the normal functioning of the school,
he shall be guilty of an offence.
(2) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale.
(3) Section 8 (parenting orders) of the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 (c. 37) is amended as follows—
(a) after subsection (1)(d) there is inserted—
"(e) a person is convicted of an offence under section (parental behaviour) of the Education Act 2002";
(b) in subsection (2) after "444" there is inserted "of the Education Act 1996 (c. 56) or section (parental behaviour) of the Education Act 2002"; and
(c) after subsection (6)(c) there is inserted—
"(d) in a case falling within paragraph (e) of that subsection, the commission of any further offence under section (parental behaviour) of the Education Act 2002"."
"We have made it clear, as the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, said, that we intend to pursue this option when a suitable criminal justice Bill is available".—[Official Report, 23/05/02; col. 979.]
It was also said that we would return in legislation to the issue of disruptive or violent behaviour by pupils.
11.15 p.m.
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