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Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, the noble Earl, Lord Russell, has addressed some of the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Saatchi. The amendments seek to remove the powers in Schedule 5 which enable the Inland Revenue to use the information that it obtains when administering tax credits, child benefit, or guardians allowance for any purpose except the particular credit or benefit to which it applies. In other words, if the amendment were to be agreed by the House, we would not be able to use that information or give it to any other government department and passported benefits would be wiped out.

Lord Saatchi: My Lords, it does not mean that.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, it does. We have already said that. On a previous occasion I made it clear that that is why we need data exchange because without it the Department of Health, which is responsible for determining free prescriptions, and the Department for Education and Skills, which is responsible for determining free school meals, cannot function. The Department for Work and Pensions does not determine those matters, nor does the Inland Revenue; it is the home department that determines them. So they need that information either in its original form or with corroboration from our department. If you want to be responsible for taking free school dinners away from the poor children of this country, so be it. I am sure that is not the intention of the noble Lord, but his amendment would have that effect. It would remove the power that we have to provide that information.

The noble Lord is right to want to ensure that unnecessary information that may transgress the Data Protection Act is not transferred. Our starting point is that all information about claimants is confidential.

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The schedule applies to tax credits, child benefit and guardian's allowance. The existing criminal sanction against the unauthorised disclosure of information by revenue staff applies. To provide that efficient, effective, joined-up service to claimants so that they may receive passported benefits, and occasionally to help protect against fraud, we need that information to be disclosed to other bodies. None of those provisions is contrary to the Human Rights Act.

This issue, together with all other aspects of the Bill, was specifically considered by my right honourable friend and the Chancellor of the Exchequer in another place and they signed, as I have, the certificate of compatibility on the introduction of the Bill. Nothing has changed since then. If we are to have passported benefits, these powers are needed so that the information is available to the home departments which will continue properly to exercise those powers within the constraints of the Data Protection Act. No one may use those powers for purposes other than those proposed and they are compatible with the Human Rights Act.

The second point was picked up by the noble Earl, Lord Russell. He seemed to suggest that Schedule 5 has never been seen by the other place. He appeared to suggest that it is a late addition to the Bill and that the other House has never seen it. That simply is not true. Schedule 5 has been in the Bill from the outset. It is for the other place to decide what it scrutinises.

Lord Saatchi: My Lords, I said that the other place had not seen it, by which I meant that it was in the Bill, but that the Government had denied another place the opportunity to discuss it or to scrutinise it.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, the noble Lord said that the Commons had not "seen" it. The plain English translation of that is that they had not seen it because it is new. On the contrary: they saw it; they chose not to debate it. That is a matter for the Commons. Whether or not your Lordships agree that that was wise, it is not for us to say that because the Commons chose not to discuss it, it is our job to take it all out.

Earl Russell: My Lords, perhaps I can assist the noble Baroness. Each House is sovereign over its own procedure. We have no more right to criticise the Commons' use of its procedures than it has to criticise ours.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, more elegantly put than I could ever hope to. I hope that as a result of those two arguments—first, that removing the schedule by going with this amendment would deny the departments the information they need to passport poor children and families on to their relevant benefits; secondly, that it is not our business to comment on what the Commons chooses to scrutinise—the noble Lord will not wish to pursue the matter further.

Lord Saatchi: My Lords, the House of Commons did not decide not to scrutinise this schedule; the

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Government decided that it would not scrutinise it. That is what happened. Therefore it remains the case that this House is being required to look at legislation—not for the first time—and far exceed the duties and responsibilities given to it by the Leader of the House in his description of this place. We suggest that it is a responsibility that we should decline. However, the noble Baroness, as she said, is "flinty" on this point and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 65 [Regulations, orders and schemes]:

[Amendment No. 25 not moved.]

Earl Russell moved Amendment No. 26:

After Clause 66, insert the following new clause—

"ADVISORY BODIES AND CONSULTATION
The Social Security Advisory Committee (constituted under section 9 of the Social Security Act 1980 (c. 30) (the social security advisory committee) and Part XIII of the Social Security Administration Act 1992 (c. 5) (advisory bodies and consultation)) and its functions shall apply to tax credits, and paragraph 28(4) and (5) of Schedule 3 to this Act shall amend Part XIII of the Social Security Administration Act 1992 accordingly."

The noble Earl said: My Lords, in moving Amendment No. 26, I shall speak also to Amendment No. 28 which is grouped with it. The effect of these two amendments is to bring the matter of tax credits within the scope of the Social Security Advisory Committee.

When one has the transfer of business between departments, one has a merging of cultures. The purpose of this and one or two other amendments that I have moved is to ensure that within that merging of cultures, the most desirable feature—that is, the culture of social security, which is in many respects a good one—should not be lost.

The Social Security Advisory Committee is of immense value to us in our proceedings here. Regulations are not the easiest of reading matter and to have, when they are before us, the committee's exposition of what the regulations say—what they do, what the bodies it has consulted have to say, what specific defects have been spotted within them and in what ways, if any, they need changing—and to have then the Secretary of State's reply to those matters all in the Printed Paper Office whenever we consider a social security regulation, is an immense advantage to us. So I hope that the transfer of responsibilities to the Treasury will not mean that that benefit will be lost.

I understand that there are already informal arrangements for the Social Security Advisory Committee to be consulted. But that is not the same as actually having its recommendations in the Printed Paper Office where we can read them. That ensures a proper debate on regulations when we get them. In fact, it is an absolutely vital asset to scrutiny.

As I understand it, the problem that the Government have about this is the problem of accountability. I do not see a problem about the accountability of the Social Security Advisory Committee to the Department for Work and Pensions for what is within its remit, and to the Treasury for matters within its remit. After all, there are other

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advisory bodies which may be accountable to more than one department for work which comes within their particular purview. Even if there is some difficulty seen about this, in the last resort, if Parliament is sovereign, it can do whatever it likes. If Parliament wants to do this, it can. I rather hope it will want to do this. I beg to move.

Lord Higgins: My Lords, I rise to support the noble Earl in this amendment, which is a very important one. We all accept that the Social Security Advisory Committee does excellent work, and the noble Earl stressed its importance.

Under this Bill the responsibility for this specific social security benefit—it clearly is a social security benefit; I do not accept the argument put forward earlier by the Minister that it is somehow outside the social security structure—and the body best qualified to comment on the way in which the tax credit scheme develops is the Social Security Advisory Committee. The argument is put forward that somehow it is within the remit of the Inland Revenue and not social security. I do not accept that argument. It clearly comes within the social security structure.

I hope therefore that if the noble Baroness seeks to reject this amendment, the matter will be pressed to a Division and the opinion of the House taken upon it. It is an important amendment. After all, £2.7 billion is being paid out in what are indisputably and in reality social security benefits. They are not part of the Inland Revenue—we have been over this argument before—they are social security benefits. Even the parts which are genuine tax credits and deducted from other tax liabilities comprise only 10 per cent of the total. It is entirely appropriate therefore that the Social Security Advisory Committee should keep an eye on the way in which the tax credits system develops without regard to the exact department which is responsible for its administration. I strongly support the view that the noble Earl put forward.

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