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Lord Clinton-Davis: My Lords, has there been any communication by the European Commission that the Bill is not to be welcomed?
Lord Moynihan: My Lords, I have had no communication from the European Commission either welcoming or rejecting this Bill. The point that I am making and, I hope, arguing as cogently as I can, is that this Bill which is very well-intentioned in many respects, is pre-empting the exhaustive, important and welcome process that Ministers have agreed as a result of their meetings in Bergen. And that process has been welcomed and initiated by consecutive Ministers from both sides of this House over the years.
What I would regret is that however well-intentioned and welcome this Bill is—I know the noble Lord feels that very strongly—it should not come to your Lordships' House piecemeal or fail to take into account the wider implications for the far more important work, recognised by the Government, which has emerged from the Bergen declaration. This work needs to be taken forward. It is recognised by both sides of your Lordships' House as requiring a good six years before we get the sort of results coming from the sort of quality research we need to protect our marine wildlife.
I am for that objective as strongly as the noble Lord is. I have believed in that passionately since the days when I was a Minister in the Department of the Environment. I would not wish to see hasty legislation pre-empt that important process. It may well be that the noble Lord will persuade me that I am wrong in having come to that conclusion. I look forward to hearing from him.
Let me give the noble Lord some examples about how this process could pre-empt important work. The notification process as drafted, could damage the prospect for offshore wind energy achieving its
objectives. Let us consider how this notification process is drafted. By Section 3(1), English Nature or the Countryside Council for Wales can:
- "notify a marine site of special interest by reason of...flora, fauna".
Under Section 3(2), the Secretary of State for the National Assembly must, following consultation with English Nature or CCW, publish his criteria in accordance with which nature conservation bodies are to notify MSSIs. It is not clear to me which comes first.
It appears that under Section 3, English Nature or CCW can notify an MSSI at any time even if there are no published criteria. It may be that, in due course, some consistency may be achieved, but this can only happen over time in the absence of any pre-published thresholds for designation.
What this means is that any offshore wind promoter may have no advance knowledge of interests that could lead to a designation. This is a development risk which those funding wind power developments will find difficult to accept. The increased risk will commensurately increase the cost of financing projects and this, in all probability, will limit the number of projects the Government need to see brought to development if they are to meet renewable energy targets.
A further difficulty arises in that it is the wind developers who are often the very organisations discovering offshore nature conservation interests on behalf of the nature conservation bodies. There is, in most cases, very little pre-existing information. The very process of EIA involves producing information which, in turn, may lead to a designation. We need to give very careful thought to such overlapping roles if conflicts of interest are to be overcome.
Turning to controls over development, the fact is that there are none. Under Section 9 a decision-maker who perceives that a proposed operation may damage the interests of the MSSI, must notify English Nature or CCW who have a maximum of 28 days to give their views. The decision-maker can ignore any negative views expressed by the nature conservation body, although it must tell that body how its representations have been taken into account. It must give consent to the proposed operation in such a way that is consistent with management schemes which are provided for within the Bill.
There are many other aspects into which we shall go in detail during the committee stage. I should like to conclude by saying that offshore wind energy is an industry which enjoys strong encouragement from the Government, the European Community and in the Bergen declaration of March 2002. It should not be prejudiced by well-meaning but unnecessary legislation at this important stage in the Bergen process.
12.7 p.m.
Lord Hardy of Wath: My Lords, could I first declare an interest as chairman of the All-Party Conservation
Group in your Lordships' House and as a Member with close involvement in a variety of conservation bodies.Like other Members, I am appreciative of efforts made in the other place to present this Bill. I should like to congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay of St Johns, on the presentation of the Bill and on the case that she offered the House in support of it.
The noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, spoke of hasty legislation. I recall in 1981 in the consideration, with colleagues, of the Wildlife and Countryside Bill, seeking to promote the protection of the marine heritage. We did not get very far. That was 20 years ago. There have been suggestions over those two decades that progress should be made and I am glad that we are likely to make some progress.
The Bill has been described as not terribly significant. I believe it is significant. It is important. I would hate to think that we would have to wait for another decade, because in the 20 years that have elapsed since the 1981 Act the damage to the marine fauna and flora has been substantial and, I believe, accelerating.
When one reads that our coastal cetaceans are dying of poison or we see the destruction of fish stocks or the damage done in our estuarial and coastal areas, then this seems a modest Bill. It is not designed to stop development around our coasts; it is designed to establish some areas where there is a prospect of our ecological inheritance being maintained.
The House should also be aware that over the past 20 or 30 years there has been a great deal of progress in cleaning up our rivers. When I think back to my first days in the other place, the rivers serving and adjacent to my constituency were little better than open sewers. There was no prospect of fish in the Rivers Don, Rother and Dearne. Not long after I entered the other place, I discovered one contractor who was making a lot of money removing acid from steelworks and disposing of it by driving to the River Dearne at two o'clock in the morning and discharging it straight into the river.
Yet today there are lots of fish in the Rivers Dearne, Don and Rother because of determined action not to wait at great length for the passage of laws. People were committed to taking action. The public and private sectors were involved, as were local authorities and the Yorkshire Rivers Authority, then the Yorkshire Water Authority, now Calder. The steel industry in my area spent a vast sum of money to ensure that it did not discharge poison into the River Don.
We have cleaned up the rivers, so the amount of filth entering our estuaries is reduced, but we are not prepared to do anything hastily to ensure that estuaries and coastal areas see a reduction in pollution.
This is an essential Bill. There may be attempts to change it but I am not sure whether there is any merit in change. But it is essential that this Bill, in a suitable form, becomes enacted. It is about time that we took greater care in and gave priority to the proper stewardship of our coastal areas.
12.9 p.m.
Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville: My Lords, it is as much a pleasure to follow—in more ways than one—the noble Lord, Lord Hardy of Wath, who played a most distinguished part in Committee in another place on the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981, as it is to congratulate my noble friend Lady Anelay on introducing this Bill in your Lordships' House.
This is of course Second Reading, but, as my noble friend Lord Caithness reminded us, in the words of clergy reading marriage banns, it is also the third time of asking. One happy consequence of our taking this debate in mid-morning instead of, at our earlier essays, in the middle of the night, is that the number of noble Lords wishing to speak has grown and nature has been reversed—if the metaphor is excused and not misunderstood—by a rolling stone gathering some moss. Those of us who have loyally sought to support this Second Reading from the beginning can reasonably echo the remark of the Bellman in The Hunting of the Snark, itself of course a marine expedition:
- "What I tell you three times is true".
I have to confess, however, that though my stamina would have kept me here till the close in the small hours on the earlier occasions, I have had a three-line Whip engagement at the University of London just after lunch today since long before our first putative Second Reading. I therefore fear that I may not be here at the close, and ask your Lordships to forgive me. I shall avoid asking any questions for the Minister not to need to answer.
I am myself a Londoner from way back, apart from evacuation, parts of education, the Army and abroad, but I have lived beside the Thames for the past decade, where the voracity of cormorants, as mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Mason of Barnsley, not only outside this Palace but also on stretches such as Wapping Reach, demonstrates vividly how in the past 40 years fish have come back into the Thames—as the noble Lord, Lord Hardy, was saying elsewhere a moment ago—in species now in three figures. However, my lot has also on vacation been cast beside the sea in our own waters. As a boy, eight of our family summer holidays in 11 years, between my age of eight and 18, were spent in or around St. David's in the Pembrokeshire National Park, where offshore Skomer, one of the three marine nature reserves referred to by my noble friend Lady Anelay, is found; where the beaches get all the EU stars; where the cliffs have all the colours of John Piper's palette; and where the seabirds would effectively illustrate any textbook of their 27 British species without need for a printed page.
When my own children were young, we had a similar number of holidays at Lochaline, on the Sound of Mull, where the ruins of Lochaline Castle, the ancient castle of the Lords of the Isles, watch over the whales, dolphins and seals which reign over that channel just as the cormorants reign over Wapping Reach. My children were also for eight years at school within a mile of the sea in the Isle of Purbeck, where of course
the Dorset and east Devon coast was in December last year made a world heritage site and thus recognised as having the same global significance as the Great Barrier Reef. Finally, in Northern Ireland, I used to sail in their marine nature reserve, at Strangford Lough, in a remarkable boat, self-built by its owner, with a concrete hull.All of this experience was both an education and a joy. Closer to home in the context of this debate, I was the government Whip in the Committee to which the noble Lord, Lord Hardy, referred, on the Wildlife and Countryside Bill 1981, opposite the noble Lord, Lord Graham, as opposition Whip. The government's piloting of the Bill was in the hands of my noble friends Lord King of Bridgwater and Lord Monro, and on the government side my noble friends Lord Kimball and the late Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish notably supported us. I have referred to the part played by the noble Lord, Lord Hardy. In another place, the Father of the House, Tam Dalyell, is a veteran survivor of that Bill. That Committee stage too was a joy, for everyone on it was both in love with the subject and deeply expert upon it. Unlike Bills in the Commons today, it received 105 hours in Committee without guillotine or programme Motion.
With the benefit of experience, the SSSIs were perhaps not sufficiently protected by that legislation. However, a greater omission at the time, as the noble Lord, Lord Hardy said, was felt to be the attention, or perhaps inattention, given to marine conservation. The Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000 did not make a significant difference in that respect. This is why the admirable initiative in this Bill of John Randall, the Member of Parliament for Uxbridge—happily referred to in a ministerial slip of the tongue in another place as the MP for Oxbridge—has been so widely welcomed. He had demonstrated his naturalist prominence, notably in ornithology, during the Committee stage of the Greater London Authority Bill in the previous Parliament. He consulted widely on this Bill last year with representatives of what he described at Third Reading as the marine industries, including fisheries, ports, shipping, offshore oil and gas and wind energy as well as with leisure interests.
Of course I acknowledge that the Bill was substantially rewritten by the Government on Report. Of course I acknowledge the Bill is not everything that wildlife interests would wish. Of course I acknowledge that the Government's own thinking and programme on these marine matters is still in gestation, but the strategy document Safeguarding Our Seas, to which my noble friend Lord Caithness referred, and published last month, is an index of present government attention to these matters. Of course I realise—my noble friends Lord Moynihan and Lord Caithness have introduced the thought into the debate—that that hoary academic standby, the doctrine of unripe time, may be adduced. I should perhaps add diffidently that I hold a Harvard MBA and that I am not unaware of economic considerations and would not discount them. However, for myself, I hope that these alternative siren voices will not be heeded by your Lordships.
The Minister in the Commons, Michael Meacher, himself alluded to Scylla and Charybdis in recommending the Bill at Third Reading in another place. Legislative time is always at a premium, but the 19 years between the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 and the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000, as the noble Lord, Lord Hardy, said—interrupted only, I think, by the Conservation (Natural Habitats, etc.) Regulations 1994—demonstrate how difficult it is to find time for conservation legislation in this Parliament. Those who might wish to delay this legislation could cite the judgment of Sam Rayburn, Lyndon Johnson's great Texan colleague, that the three wisest words in the English language are "Wait a minute". But a minute, an hour, a week, a month or two decades are not proof against the opposite aphorism that the best is always the enemy of the good.
Mr Meacher said at Third Reading:
- "The Bill is very worth while",
- "The measure has also shown us a new and significant role for private Member's Bills. Although they are often enacted, they are sometimes confined to a relatively small role. I would never describe their role as insignificant, but it could be more important. This is unquestionably an important Bill".—[Official Report, Commons, 15/3/02; col. 1190.]
I followed the arguments of my noble friends Lord Caithness and Lord Moynihan about the Government contribution to the Bill, but it was Mr Randall who introduced his Bill, to which the Government added their own amendments and new clauses. I myself hope that, once this Bill is an Act, we shall return to these marine issues as and when further thought has been taken. But in the mean time, I remind your Lordships of the Chinese advice:
- "In long journey first step most important".
12.18 p.m.
Baroness Nicol: My Lords, I must first declare an interest as a vice-president of the RSPB, of the Marine Conservation Society and of the Council for National Parks, all of which have declared an interest in the Bill.
I most warmly welcome the Bill, and I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, on the way in which she has introduced it. She has left very little which needs to be explained. I hope that her success with the Bill continues.
I am sorry that the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, has left the Chamber because I wanted to express to him my disagreement with his assertion that government support for a Bill makes it a government Bill; it does not. I have been a Member of the House for 20 years. I had the privilege of steering three or four Bills through the House when my party was in opposition. On at least two of those occasions the then Conservative government were very helpful to me and gave me a great deal of advice and information which resulted in the Bills' successful passage. I should like to think that that still applies. If the Government help anyone in opposition, that does not invalidate a Bill. The noble Earl was perhaps a little too bitter about that matter.
The noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, made some interesting points. I am afraid that I did not absorb everything that he said. I shall need to read his comments and perhaps return to them at a later stage. However, perhaps he might consider that a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
I believe that we are all agreed that the Bill could be a useful step in marine protection and that in the past the subject has excited far more than its fair share of disagreement. Several noble Lords referred to the difficulties arising from the 1981 Act. I remind noble Lords who were not Members of the House at the time that the section on marine nature reserves had to be added at a late stage with support from all sides of both Houses. It is significant that of the eight sites that were identified initially, only two have been notified. However, a third, Strangford Lough, was identified later and has since been approved.
All protected marine sites have a commercial value. It has been established beyond doubt that commercial interests in the vicinity of a protected marine site have improved. Generally, fish stocks well outside a marine protected area have improved and have gained in commercial value.
The Marine Conservation Society welcomes the Bill as a means to identify and protect sites of national rather than European importance. However, the society has concerns about some of the clauses. I wish to mention just two. First, Clause 9 requires the appropriate conservation body to be consulted before any potentially damaging operation is undertaken. That is quite right. However, if the site is damaged by the operation, there is no requirement in the Bill for the damage to be restored. That is a sad omission.
Secondly, as the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, said, there is no statutory requirement for the boundaries of MSSIs to be marked on admiralty charts, which means that there is no practical way in which the majority of sea users will know when they are passing through an MSSI unless it is one of the sites selected for designation by markers. I do not expect the noble Baroness to deal with those points today. If we have a later stage of the Bill, they could be discussed then. However, despite those concerns, the Marine Conservation Society believes that the Bill in its present form is well worth while and it would not seek to endanger its progress by trying to amend it.
My noble friend Lord Judd dealt thoroughly with the views of the Council for National Parks. Will the Minister ask his department to look into the concept of marine national parks based on the land national parks? Of course the regulations would have to be substantially different.
There is general agreement that the Bill as it stands is welcome and valuable, and that given the pressure on parliamentary time it should be allowed to pass in its present form. I am sure that both the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, and the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, are aware that if we make even the slightest amendment to the Bill it will not pass as there is no time for it to go back to the Commons. It would be sad if we were
unable to obtain this useful measure for that reason. Therefore, I hope that noble Lords will give the Bill a speedy passage.12.24 p.m.
Baroness Wilcox: My Lords, I add my voice to those of other noble Lords in thanking my noble friend Lady Anelay for giving us the opportunity to discuss the Bill today rather than the other night when I had lost my voice!
First, I declare an interest as vice-chairman of the Port of London Authority which is responsible for providing a safe regime for navigation from a line drawn approximately between Harwich and Margate to Teddington at the end of the tidal Thames. This is an area of approximately 400 square miles of water which includes a number of marine nature conservation sites already protected under the habitats regulations, as well as the water that flows past your Lordships' House as we speak.
London is one of Britain's three largest ports, handling over 50 million tonnes of cargo in 2001, with some 39,000 commercial ship movements within its area last year alone. I am pleased to tell your Lordships that the Port of London Authority enjoys good working relationships with the conservation agencies which also have significant interests in the environment of the Thames and its estuary.
It is a fact worth drawing to noble Lords' attention that 95 per cent of all the United Kingdom's trade by weight and volume is transported by sea and that efficient and safe access to and from the nation's ports, such as Felixstowe, Southampton, the Humber, Tees and Hartlepool, as well as London, is essential to every man, woman and child living in these islands.
In November 2000 the Government published a policy document, Modern Ports: A UK Policy, which placed great emphasis on safety, economic success and environmental sustainability. In the document the Government recognised the need for future port expansion to meet growing demand in some sectors and emphasised that sustainable development must recognise the importance of meeting economic, social and environmental objectives at the same time. In Modern Ports the Government also promised a review of the existing marine nature consents regime with a view to rationalising and simplifying the consent and inquiry procedures for port developments.
The review commenced only three weeks ago and the ports have not yet had the opportunity to make their input into the process. It is, therefore, to be regretted that this well-meaning Bill is being promoted prior to the conclusions of that review; for I am sorry to say that our existing marine nature conservation laws and regulations appear to have grown like Topsy, with differing requirements depending on whether they are based on UK (home grown) proposals or European diktats (directives). What is needed is an integrated system, not piecemeal legislation. Indeed, English Nature has itself called for a streamlining of the regulatory consents process without diluting the
associated environmental standards. The Minister of State, Michael Meacher, when speaking on this issue in another place, stated that government should not further complicate an already complex, piecemeal mosaic, and that a simplistic solution should not be applied to a complicated problem. I agree with him wholeheartedly.I fear that those promoting the Bill may have got the cart before the horse. We should really encourage the Government to produce the conclusions of their review before the Bill receives further consideration in your Lordships' House. I am not convinced that the Bill in its current form takes sufficient account of the importance of balancing social and economic interests with environmental concerns. For instance, harbour authorities do not specifically have to be consulted regarding the criteria for selecting sites. That cannot be right. At a later stage I shall propose an amendment to redress that.
There needs to be much wider recognition by everyone that it is in our estuarial ports that the conflict between nature conservation and economic necessity is most acute. It is the role of government to ensure that social, economic and environmental needs are accorded equal consideration and that an equitable balance is maintained between them in the interests of all who live in these islands.
12.30 p.m.
Lord Clinton-Davis: My Lords, I rise to speak after the noble Baroness; I love to follow her but I cannot do so on this occasion. She indicated her opposition to the Bill. Nothing that she said prevents discussions from taking place afterwards on a major basis.
I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, for circulating the Explanatory Notes, which were most helpful, and for her speech, which at times was extremely graphic and even poetic. I, like others no doubt, have been tempted to amend the Bill to make it even more environmentally benign. But, like Eve's apple, amending the Bill represents a temptation we should resist.
I do not say that idly. I hope that my credentials in relation to the environment are not in question. I had the honour of being the Commissioner for Environment in the European Community. One of the principal successes of those years was the European Year of the Environment. The conservation of marine wildlife formed a significant part of it. I am talking about 1986 to 1987.
That is why I want to conserve the Bill. I am glad that the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, supports that view. The Bill has been substantially considered and amended in another place. Some now want to wreck it altogether; I want the Bill to become part of our law. If it goes back to another place, it is likely that it would never return here, or perhaps would do so in 20 years' time. That would be a dire outcome.
Like my noble friend Lady Nicol, I do not think that we have the pleasure of seeing Bills of such importance being introduced into either House of Parliament with sufficient regularity. This Bill has a decided advantage. We have heard various suggestions, particularly from my noble friend Lady Nicol, which I am sure would be very helpful. At a later stage, they could be carried through. However, that is not the case today. My plea is that the Bill, as redrafted, should now be agreed to. Within reason, debating ameliorations today could be helpful for the future. However, I repeat that the incentive to introduce such alterations should not be put to the test.
It goes without saying that what is required is an even more comprehensive approach so far as conservation and marine management are concerned. We have every reason to hope that the Government's working group on marine conservation will be enormously influential in the longer run. Having set it up, the Government must take account of its expert views. The UK has entered into various important international obligations. I hope that they will have the effect of protecting marine wildlife beyond our territorial waters. However, there must be sound domestic legislation to ensure that the wildlife within our islands, and their habitats, are properly safeguarded.
Following extensive consultation, the Bill as it stands contains a provision that is designed specifically for the marine environment. It provides for the proper consideration of the importance of any scientific site prior to the go-ahead being given to any contemplated development that may threaten it.
In considering the Bill, it is important to emphasise that the last word in determining the status of SSSIs and marine sites of special interest lies with the Secretary of State. One would assume that he or she would have the interests of the environment at heart.
My noble friend Lord Whitty spoke on this matter in 2000 in your Lordships' House. He said:
- "I accept that there has been a lack of progress on designating marine conservation areas, as compared with land-based ones".
- "We now have the will to pursue an increase in identification and powers to enforce marine conservation areas of all kinds".—[Official Report, 16/10/00; cols. 840-1.]
The Bill has been considered and reconsidered elsewhere. National sites of marine importance are protected to a degree that was simply not the case before. The ability to reconcile development and conservation through the Bill is greatly improved. What has been achieved through wider discussion is also highly significant. That, together with the protection afforded to international sites through European legislation, means that many problems are on their way to resolution. It is true that we have not addressed all the potential difficulties—some will reveal themselves in the future—but I believe that a very good start has been made.
12.40 p.m.
Lord Geddes: My Lords, the House is surely extremely grateful to my noble friend Lady Anelay for introducing this subject. As the noble Lord, Lord Bridges, reminded us, the proposals in the Bill require us to look again at the potential conflict between the objectives of environmental conservation on the one hand and economic and recreational activity on the other. I believe most sincerely that all those objectives are laudable. As has already been said today, the issue is how to strike a balance between them.
I say at the outset that I do not have any direct interest in ports, offshore energy or other commercial activities that will, or may be, potentially affected if the proposals in the Bill reach the statute book. However, as some of your Lordships may be aware, I have long had an interest in maritime affairs and renewable energy, and therefore I have studied the Bill with considerable interest.
It is hoped that all informed commentators will agree that present legislation governing marine environmental protection is in need of overhaul. Indeed, the Government acknowledged that when promoting the Countryside and Rights of Way Act. As has been said, they recognised that marine conservation raised a series of special and distinct issues. Therefore, as my noble friend Lord Caithness advised the House, they established a Review of Marine Nature Conservation to look at the whole area.
The terms of reference for that review were to evaluate the present statutory and voluntary marine nature conservation measures, including European initiatives, and to put forward,
- "practical and proportionate proposals for improving marine nature conservation".
Again, as we have been told—I believe that it is well worth repeating it—the review produced an interim report in May last year. That interim report recognised that current legislation for marine conservation was not satisfactory and noted that marine nature conservation raised complicated and difficult issues. In particular, it recognised that the answer was not
simply to extend the SSSI regime into the marine environment. The report proposed that a pilot scheme should be established, known as the "Regional Seas Project",
- "to demonstrate both the application of new concepts and examine how far the conservation management needed within the pilot area"—
- "could be delivered through existing systems".
It is of interest that when the Bill was originally published, it was discussed at a meeting of that review group in August last year. Saving the presence of the noble Baroness, Lady Nicol, who, sadly, is not in her place at present, with the exception of the RSPB representative, all other members of the group agreed that, while the objectives of the Bill were laudable, it was not an appropriate solution to the issues which the group had been considering and that the "quick-fix" approach in the Bill was not the answer.
The problem is the familiar one of a series of statutory regimes enacted at different times for different purposes, which now constitute a complex web of legislation. Arguably that does not serve the best interests of either the conservationist or business. My noble friend Lady Wilcox has already reminded us that the Minister, Mr Meacher, in another place—I shall not give the whole quotation again, but it is significant—said,
- "we must not apply a simplistic solution to a complicated problem".—[Official Report, Commons, 26/10/01; col. 594.]
That said, I recognise of course that the other place, in its wisdom, has seen fit to give the Bill its blessing, albeit in an amended form. It was substantially amended, and thereafter unscrutinised, in another place. Therefore, I believe—indeed, I am absolutely certain—that it is the duty of this House to look most carefully not only at the provisions of the Bill in the form in which they are now presented, and in particular to look at the implications for the ports, offshore energy, fishing and recreational interests, which may or may not be affected; it is also important that we look at its timing.
As I said at the outset, overarching all this is the need to strike a reasonable balance between desirable but potentially conflicting objectives. This country has a rich heritage in its coastline and its marine environment which we must surely seek to protect. However, again, as the noble Lord, Lord Bridges, so wisely said, our coastal waters are also the scene of considerable and important economic activity. I am concerned that, in its present form, the Bill may not
strike the right balance. Assuming that the Bill proceeds, I shall, at a later stage, table amendments to redress that imbalance.Quite separately from the review of marine nature conservation, the Government have, as my noble friend Lady Wilcox has just said, embarked on a review of the marine consents procedures with their White Paper, Modern Ports. The paper undertook that the Government would,
- "work with the industry and other interests to rationalise and, where possible, simplify the consents and enquiry procedures for port developments".
- "review the regulatory framework affecting coastal and marine development, including ports, with a view to simplifying the regulatory system and protecting the marine environment".
Surely it is not an appropriate moment to introduce yet another new regime for designation of protected marine sites at a time when the Government are in the process of seeking to rationalise and simplify an already complex regime. Marine environment is very close to my heart. I dearly want to see it protected, but surely we must get it right and not get off to a false start.
12.49 p.m.
Lord Chorley: My Lords, at this stage of the debate I do not have much to contribute by way of technical considerations, but I have a background of past activities that make me aware of the importance of our marine coastal environment and its conservation. For five years I was a member of the Natural Environment Research Council, which has several inshore—I do not know whether to talk about "inshore" or "offshore"—marine research stations. Prior to that I was president of the Royal Geographical Society, and although I am not a geographer I became familiar with our geomorphologically more important stretches of coast. I also recall my experience as chairman of the National Trust which protects nearly a half of our heritage coast in England and Wales, although its ownership does not extend into the sea.
From that background I find it increasingly odd that there is no protection of the coastal marine environment equivalent to that provided on land by the SSSI designation under the Act of 1981, to which reference has been made. I understand that the SSSI designation could not automatically relate to the sea. As we heard from the noble Baroness, Lady Nicol, it enabled the MNRs to be set up. Of course, the MNR designation is not the same as an SSSI, nor has it been particularly successful. I am glad that the Government recognise that.
For all those reasons I am glad to add my support for the Bill. Either the noble Lord, Lord Brooke, or the noble Lord, Lord Hardy, said that we had waited
21 years since the Wildlife and Countryside Act and even if I were a life Peer I would not be here if we had to wait another 21 years. It does not make sense to wait any longer. We would have to wait for a Private Member's Bill to achieve the progress that we hope will be made by this Bill.I have been impressed by the debate. We have heard a long and distinguished list of knowledgeable speakers who for the most part have been supportive. It is encouraging that the White Paper—nowadays it is a glossy paper but I believe that it amounts to a White Paper—has been most supportive of the Bill. Therefore, I look forward to hearing the Minister's reply to the debate.
I found Safeguarding our Seas a most encouraging document. It is an excellent overview of the whole maritime environment and of the Government's intentions. If there is a gap, it is perhaps in relation to where responsibilities lie and who does what. In that sense the Bill fills at least part of the gap.
I shall not say anything about the details of the Bill, which for the most part appear unexceptional. I wondered what was meant by "sustainable development" in Clause 12. It is a fashionable, much over-worked phrase that can mean almost anything to anyone. However, I believe that the White Paper has a perfectly sensible definition which is good enough for me and I imagine that it could be the basis of ministerial guidance. I hope that that will allay the fears, for example, of the Countryside Council for Wales which had a concern on that point, as did one or two noble Lords.
Previous speakers have raised many points. Some want to strengthen the Bill; some wish to weaken it, wreck it or destroy it, as we heard from the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis. As I believe the noble Lord, Lord Brooke, said, "Remember that the best is the enemy of the good". I too had written that down. Changing the metaphor, I add that half a loaf is better than no loaf. The Bill is somewhat modest, but it is better than anything that has gone before.
I have been sent material by English Nature and the Countryside Council for Wales. English Nature, as we have heard, is supportive and makes the point, which is surely right, that the Bill,
- "is seen in the context of the comprehensive and integrated approach",
I also made contact with my old organisation, NERC. It advised me that while conservation falls largely outside NERC's remit, colleagues at marine laboratories are generally supportive. The Wildlife and Countryside Link, an important umbrella body, goes further and regards the Bill as a major step forward.
We have a wonderful coast with rich and variegated marine eco-systems. Nevertheless, the Bill, modest though its measures appear to be, gives us the capability to improve significantly how we look after our marine environmental heritage.
12.55 p.m.
Baroness Gibson of Market Rasen: My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, for presenting the Bill to the House. Like the previous speaker, and as a relatively new Member of the House, I have been very impressed by the knowledgeable debate. I believe that the strength of the House is the knowledge possessed by noble Lords, irrespective of whether they agree with each other.
One of the first Bills that I followed in any depth was the Countryside and Rights of Way Bill. Among other matters, that touched on conservation issues about land. I believe that this Bill complements the CROW Bill because it aims to strengthen the laws relating to nature conservation and to protect wildlife in the marine environment.
In 1999 the UK Government defined "sustainable development" and among other objectives they outlined effective protection of the environment and prudent use of natural resources. I believe that this Bill covers those two aims admirably. Sustainable development has become an increasingly important part of public consciousness; they are certainly words that are used more often, as the noble Lord, Lord Chorley, said. It has become part of the Government's thinking as witnessed in their publication Safeguarding Our Seas: A Strategy for the Conservation and Sustainable Development of Our Marine Environment. It is also part of the debate surrounding the European Union's strategy for sustainable development. The union defined that phrase as:
- "A dynamic process which enables all people to realise their potential and improve their quality of life in ways which simultaneously protect and enhance the earth's life support systems".
We need to emphasise the need for this kind of legislation in the UK and in Europe in relation to our seas. I want to read to your Lordships a short extract from an article in the May report of the Labour Animal Welfare Society. I declare an interest as a member of that society.
- "(mid-water) trawlers, operating to the south and west of Britain and France are catching unacceptable numbers of dolphins. While these fisheries are yet to be properly monitored, hundreds of dead Dolphins wash up on English and French beaches every year. The UK and other National Governments and the European Commission have a responsibility and a legal requirement under EU law to monitor and address this problem—although a small number of UK boats are involved in the fishery, the overwhelming majority are based in France who have failed to take action".
As has already been stated, the Bill is supported by such powerful advocates as the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds, which estimates that 70 sites would gain protection in England and Wales under this legislation, and by English Nature, which stresses the importance of seeing the Bill in the context of a comprehensive and integrated approach to the marine environment.
As the RSPB said in its support for the Bill, protected marine sites are needed to allow sensitive species, including dolphins, porpoises, puffins and gannets, to breed, feed or over winter safely without disturbance. Better enforcement of wildlife protection measures is also essential. The changes proposed in this Bill would help level the playing field, giving marine sites and species similar protection to those on land.
I particularly welcome three parts of the Bill: the register of marine sites of special interest; the powers for the establishment of management schemes of special interest and, if necessary, by direction; and the offence of international or reckless disturbance of marine sites of special interest. This is an important Bill and I hope that it receives the support of the Government.
1 p.m.
Lord Hunt of Chesterton: My Lords, I am sorry to make my intervention in the gap. Having one's name knocked off the list of speakers in a deferred debate without notice is an arcane aspect of Lords' procedure of which I was unaware.
I declare an interest as chairman of ACOPS. I returned this morning from Nigeria where we were dealing with an inter-governmental conference on the devastated and endangered environment of African coastlines. I welcome the introduction of this Bill by the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay. It is an important step in protecting the marine environment which my noble friend Lord Callaghan fought for when setting up ACOPS 50 years ago in 1952.
I have two substantial points which I hope the Government will consider carefully as they take their policies forward following this Bill. The first, touched on by the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, is the marine sites of special interest introduced in Clauses 3 and 4 of the Bill. Will the Minister ensure that when those sites are under threat from the expansion of ports and other developments, changes will be permitted only for genuine conservation reasons and with real consultation as is proposed in the strong Clause 4, especially subsection (4)(c). It should be more thorough than has happened in recent years in the highly questionable permission given for the abandonment or even movement of outstanding sites of special scientific interest we have seen in the UK.
My second point is that this legislation should be followed by more comprehensive marine legislation, as other noble Lords indicated. That has been called for by many organisations in the UK, from the commercial to the environmental and scientific. Such legislation, which I and colleagues discussed earlier with Mr Meacher, should include some significant change to the administration of ocean policy in the UK so as to bring ocean policies together with those of the atmosphere and wider global and regional environmental questions.
In the United States the policy branch of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration fulfils that role and provides unique global leadership.
That administration also includes fisheries. Because the movement of fish, birds and pollution are not confined to coastal waters, they have to be considered globally. We need an agency in the UK to deal with those issues more effectively and transparently than hitherto. The introduction by this Government of the Food Standards Agency has been a great success in the complex area of food, health and agriculture. Why not an Ocean and Atmospheric Agency for the future?I conclude by saying that I hope noble Lords have read Moby Dick. The author commented that the British sovereign, at his coronation, is anointed with whale oil and when kings ate their feasts in London, before 1350, they would always eat whale meat, such was the nature of the marine environment in those days. It seems we are getting back to it.
1.3 p.m.
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: My Lords, from these Benches we warmly welcome the arrival in this House of the Marine Wildlife Conservation Bill. I join other noble Lords in congratulating, first, the honourable John Randall who introduced the Bill as a Private Member's Bill in the other place, and of course the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, who has had to be so patient in awaiting its consideration on the Floor of your Lordships' House.
We associate ourselves with the wise remarks of the noble Baroness, Lady Nicol, relating to the Government's attitude to Private Member's Bills throughout the decade. Reading the debates in another place, it was clear that one of the things that pleased Members was that the debate was good natured and centred around a common interest. That is all to the good for political life.
For that reason I regret the remarks made by the noble Earl, Lord Caithness. Perhaps he was sitting so close to where the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, normally sits that he was overtaken by a wish to play the role of the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, who likes to create debate in your Lordships' House by making comments with which we can all disagree.
In common with the noble Baroness, Lady Gibson of Market Rasen, and other noble Lords, I am pleased to see this matter come before us, having been disappointed that the Countryside and Rights of Way Bill could not contain provisions relating to marine conservation. I suffered a baptism of fire as a Front-Bencher on the CROW Bill and hope that this Bill will have a swift passage through this House.
It is a great mark of recognition that we have arrived at the position where marine life, for all the reasons given by the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, is to be given the importance it warrants in that at least half the species under the sea are to be found in our coastal waters. The noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, mentioned that the Dorset coast—my home area—recently received the accolade of becoming a World Heritage Site. It is indeed a wonderful coast.
This Bill will protect areas equally worthy of protection but which would probably fail to have any recognition under European designations because of
containing, for example, the RAF site on the Taw and Torridge estuary. That would probably preclude the area being a European site, but it may well be able to benefit from a designation under this Bill.The Government will have to consider carefully how to link the protection given in this Bill with the 42 different types of designation mentioned by the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, and the way that this Bill links to those and other pieces of legislation. Guidance given to agencies trying to enact them will be important.
The noble Lords, Lord Mason of Barnsley and Lord Bridges, gave us examples of how good conservation can make good economic sense and the whole adds up to sustainability. That is where the National Park model raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Nicol—I declare an interest as a vice-president of the Council for National Parks—could prove valuable. It enables issues to be considered in the round and concentrates on the involvement of stakeholders. There is much to be learnt from working with that model.
I listened with interest to the long experience of the noble Lord, Lord Chorley, particularly with the National Trust, which has much to offer as an example in the way it has managed to involve stakeholders in its decisions.
The noble Lords, Lord Judd, Lord Chorley and the noble Lord, Lord Beaumont of Whitley, by association with the noble Lord, Lord Judd, expressed reservations about exactly what Clause 12 will mean. I look forward to the Minister's explanation as to exactly what the Government intended when they added Clause 12 to the Bill.
The main opposition to the Bill in this House seems to have arisen from those with a specific interest in wind farms. I share their concern that renewable energy sources should be able to go ahead. It would be pointless to offer species protection only for them to die out as a result of climate change. So we must examine the issues of renewable energy and ensure that they are enabled by this Bill and not prohibited. Noble Lords have spoken only of wind farms. Of course there are huge opportunities in tidal power. In Committee, I shall want to return to that matter and explore how the Bill in the Government's view affects tidal power, in particular in view of the interesting point raised by my honourable friend David Heath in another place, that the Bill only protects that which is under the water, not above. So the Bill might be said to have bigger implications for tidal power than for wind power.
I ask the House authorities to consider the issue of Explanatory Notes not being available in the Printed Paper Office for Private Member's Bills. That does not help Members of your Lordships' House. It is an arcane rule which could do with overhaul.
Finally, I turn to the issue of charts. Can the Minister explain why there will be a requirement to register the sites when no map will be available to those who use the seas? It is strange to have the one requirement without linking it into the other. Perhaps over the years one of the mistakes of land-based maps
has been that they have not identified MSSIs. That may be why so many sites have declined into unfavourable conditions—no one knew where they were.With those few reservations I should like to wish the Bill a speedy passage through the House. I would not wish to see any amendments tabled that would preclude that speedy passage and the Bill being put on the statute book forthwith.
1.11 p.m.
Baroness Byford: My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lady Anelay for introducing her Private Member's Bill today and for giving noble Lords a chance to express their views and to share in many cases—predominantly behind me—some of their concerns.
The noble Baroness, Lady Miller, referred to taking the CROW Bill through the House as a baptism of fire. It was not my first baptism of fire. But with hindsight, as the noble Lord, Lord Judd, is acknowledging, I think we missed a trick. At the time I indicated that my knowledge of what went on under the sea was not as good as my knowledge of what went on on land. I suspect that for most of us it is true that we see what we see above the land. We do not—obviously, perhaps—give as much thought to that below.
Therefore, certainly from my point of view—I know we spent an enormous amount of time discussing that Bill in this House—it was one of the aspects that we did not conclude. We got the biodiversity plan on to the statute book, but the marine part we missed.
On first reading through my noble friend's Bill I thought it rather wishy-washy, too conciliatory in tone and unlikely to make an impact. I then began to realise how very little had been done by anyone else. It was, I thought, better to support a little Bill, simple and short as this one is, advancing one step at a time—a step perhaps in the right direction.
The world's awakening to the fragility of our environment has been sluggish. Even today many governments pay only lip service to preservation, conservation and the application of sustainable technologies, but I recognise too, as has been repeated today, the need for a balance between conservation and commercial and social activity.
The Rio Earth Summit was back in 1992, some 10 years ago. The Jakarta mandate, setting the scene for action on marine and coastal biodiversity, was in 1995—seven years ago.
There are now over 6,500 SSSIs. But they normally stop at the mean low water mark. Only a few go beyond. There are now three such marine nature reserves—Lundy, Skomer and Strangford Lough. As my noble friend, the originator of the Bill, pointed out, there is no special protection for the likes of Bracklesham Balls, Lyme Bay or the Worthing Lumps. There must be many other candidates for protection and conservation all around our coastline.
I am aware that there are interestes, particularly in shipping, wind farm and fishing that would prefer the status quo. Perhaps I may say that if I were English
Nature, looking at the length of our coastline, I would not go picking fights at this stage in all aspects. Instead, if the Bill were to pass, I should concentrate on the areas where there are no major commercial activities and wait for some of the measures outlined in Chapter 2 of Safeguarding Our Seas to catch up with me. There is a balance to be struck.However, I believe that we should do something. The Bill gets an honourable mention in Safeguarding Our Seas in the chapter on "Protecting Marine Biodiversity". Section 2.41 states:
- "The Government is pleased that the Marine Wildlife Conservation Bill, a private member's Bill produced by John Randall MP, has completed the Commons stages and now will be considered by the House of Lords. The Bill, if enacted, will permit the notification of marine sites in England and Wales which are of special interest by virtue of their fauna, flora or geological or physiographical features. Such sites will be of national importance".
Noble Lords have recognised that there is a great deal of disjointed activity and a great deal of consultation taking place. The chapter talks about negotiating agreements, exploring feasibilities, working to develop legislation, developing new approaches to evaluate, and so on. Fine, but at the moment we are not doing anything. Some of my noble friends say—quite rightly—with a good deal of force that there are current negotiations taking place and perhaps it would be wiser to wait.
In 1998 there was a consultation on SSSIs, from which came the review of marine nature conservation. To speed this on its way the Government set up yet another working group. They stated:
- "This group includes Government Departments and agencies, regulatory bodies, the devolved administrations, conservation NGOs, commercial and leisure interests".
However, even then, there will doubtless need to be other layers of consultation. I notice that local authorities are not mentioned in the working group. But I am sure that, as usual, they will do the lion's share of the tacky end of the work. As with the control of imports of illegal meat, it will be the local authorities who get to enforce the marine protection regulations—whatever they turn out to be.
The protection of marine animals is no easy task, but we need to smarten up our act and—perhaps I may suggest—get on with it, although I know that three or four of my noble friends behind me do not agree.
On 7th June 2002 Mr Elliot Morley MP, in a "Newsnight" interview, stated that it would cost a lot of money and take three years to research the damage done to dolphins, porpoises and some small whales by pair trawler nets. He did not take into account the great body of evidence already gathered by animal welfare bodies, the Institute of Zoology and concerned private individuals. Yet he seemed to know precisely what would be involved.
By March this year, only three months short of two years later, he was able to respond to a Written Question on cetacean by-catches. He replied that the Sea Mammal Research Unit would be conducting trials during March into the use of separator grids in nets in the offshore bass fishery in the South West. Can the Minister give us some idea of how successful those trials have been? Are plans underway to make use of those separated grids immediately and make them compulsory in United Kingdom territorial waters or even on UK registered vessels?
As my noble friend Lady Anelay said, this is a little Bill. I recognise that it has been heavily altered in another place. It has strong connections with the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000, as I mentioned. But the fact that it poses questions and difficulties for us is no reason why we should not at least debate it further. The one issue on which, I believe, we are all are agreed is that we want marine life to be conserved and to flourish. The question is: is the Bill the right measure at the right time and in the right place? How do we balance commercial sensitivities with conserving our wildlife? I thank my noble friend—my good friend—Lady Anelay for giving us the opportunity to have a full debate today.
I shall now touch on one other matter raised by noble Lords: the need for renewable energy. That is a huge problem for this country. The noble Baroness, Lady Miller, spoke of wind energy, as did my noble friend Lord Moynihan. To consider the matter in a different context, I find it totally unacceptable that we have about 800,000 acres of set-aside land in our country that could be providing us with energy crops at a time when half the world is starving.
My noble friend has set us a great challenge today. I thank her for introducing the Bill.
1.21 p.m.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Whitty): My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, must be gratified by the course of this debate. There has been much praise not only for her work and the knowledge of the subject that she has gained in promoting the Bill but for the way in which she presented the Bill today and for her energy in pursuing it and in talking to everyone involved, so that we could have the kind of informed debate that we have had today.
I have no doubt that the noble Baroness herself will want to pick up many of the remarks in support of the Bill in her summing up. I shall largely concentrate on the criticism of the Bill, but in doing so, everyone
should recognise that throughout the Chamber from every speaker there has been either outright support for the Bill or support for its principle and objectives. That is a commendable achievement and a demonstration that we are close to consensus in the House, although some important problems of timing and balance remain.My noble friend Lady Nicol and others have dealt with the points made by the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, who is not in his place. The Bill was not initiated or even provoked by the Government. It is a Bill that the Government felt had merit and which we have amended significantly. Nevertheless, the principle of the Bill is that of a Private Member's Bill and it should be treated as such, although the Government's support is clear.
I am of course aware that some users of the marine environment have significant concerns about certain of its provisions, while, on the other side of the argument, some environmentalists fear that it does not go far enough. There are also concerns about its timing. Timing for any Bill is never exactly right. There are parallel processes and inevitably some people will argue that we should have acted sooner and others that we should wait until something else occurs.
The important thing is that the Government have a coherent overall approach to marine conservation set out in the document that has been referred to and by my right honourable friend Michael Meacher on many occasions. The Bill forms part of that overall strategy. Parts of the Bill will not be implementable until other things have happened—I shall return to that later. The point is that we now have parliamentary time to set the main principles in primary legislation.
One of the main processes taking place in parallel with the Bill is my department's Review of Marine Nature Conservation, to which several noble Lords referred. That brings together all the major stakeholders and is intended to develop an ecosystem-based approach to managing the marine environment. It has already issued an interim report, which sets out its general sense of direction. The interim report recognises the need to identify and protect nationally important sites. The ongoing work of the review will assist in the drawing up of selection criteria and the identification of such sites and will undoubtedly help to influence the size and scope of suitable areas of the kind facilitated by the Bill. So, contrary to that work being in contradiction to the Bill's purpose, it is complementary to it, and the Bill's provisions will form an intrinsic part of the strategic approach to marine conservation.
As I said, in order to take account of the outcome of the review, the Government will need to delay implementation of some of the Bill's provisions until the review has concluded its work. If I understood him rightly, the noble Lord, Lord Geddes, said that that group had registered its concerns that the Bill's provisions pre-empted its conclusions. I am informed that that was not precisely the group's conclusion, although it undoubtedly expressed reservations about
the difficulty of transposing the SSSI regime into the marine environment and about the possible burdens and difficulties that aspects of the Bill present.But most of those concerned—certainly most of those concerned with the conservation and preservation of the marine environment—recognise that those are two strands of a strategic approach. We set out that overall strategy in Safeguarding Our Seas, and the first of a series of marine stewardship reports has been produced, which is also an ongoing process, the benefits of which will feed into the Bill's implementation.
This is a complex area, and I recognise that the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, and others have complained that we are adding to the complexity and layers of regulation in the marine area. The Government recognise that issue and one of the amendments made in another place was to ensure that there is no duplication between internationally important sites and MSSIs. Some noble Lords also consider that the Bill increases the complexity of existing marine consent regimes and pre-empts the findings of other government initiatives in the marine area. But, again, how the Bill is implemented will be informed by those reviews—not only the review to which I referred but the Review of Development in Coastal and Marine Waters, begun by my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer in his previous capacity. That is now being continued by the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister. That review, too, will feed into how the Bill is regulated. It is a review of regulations and consent procedures and is obviously an important element in how the Bill is implemented.
In summary, the other activities and initiatives that take into account and deal with the stakeholders are part of that overall strategy. Rather than pre-empting or going against the principles of the Bill, they are complementary and supportive. The whole point is that we end up with a balance. The noble Lord, Lord Bridges, referred early in this debate to balance and many other noble Lords have picked up that theme.
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