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Lord Howell of Guildford: My Lords, we are extremely grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Tordoff, for setting out the background to the report of the Procedure Committee.
I want to ask one further brief question in addition to those to which the noble Lord kindly alluded. As he rightly said and as the report states, this is an entirely new procedure—it is a novelty. A committee of this kind has not in living memory or in parliamentary records ever previously been set up. As he said, the arrangement places on noble Lords certain procedural limitations, although it obviously provides an opportunity for those noble Lords who are interested in such matters to attend and participate.
If noble Lords are not going to be full members and attend as individuals, will it be possible for them, in effect, to sign on and therefore ensure that they receive detailed minutes, proposals of Motions, the timing of meetings, the location of meetings, the subjects to be
addressed and so on? That would allow them to participate effectively and not simply scan the committee procedure papers and hope to be able to turn up at the right time. There is a danger that unless the information is provided effectively—unless it is the same as that provided to Members of another place—we will find ourselves in a second-class status. I seek an assurance on that matter.The report goes much wider but the fundamental issue is about the role of your Lordships' House in relation to the work of the European convention. Such matters go a little beyond the bailiwick of the noble Lord, Lord Tordoff. Perhaps the noble and learned Lord the Lord Privy Seal might respond when he moves the next Motion on the Order Paper; I leave it for him to decide how to deal with the wider issues.
3.15 p.m.
Lord Roper: My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Lord, Lord Tordoff, for having presented the matter so clearly to the House. The convention is clearly an important development in the work of the European Union; it represents an opportunity for national parliaments to be involved in considerations in advance of the intergovernmental conference. It is therefore extremely important that both parts of this Parliament, and Parliament together, work out how we handle these matters.
As the noble Lord, Lord Tordoff, will know, my noble friend Lord Maclennan of Rogart and the noble Lord, Lord Tomlinson, are in Brussels today; there is a meeting of the convention as we speak. My noble friend told me that he very much welcomes this interesting innovation and the fact that there will be an opportunity for himself and the noble Lord, Lord Tomlinson, to appear before the Commons committee.
As the noble Lord, Lord Howell, said, and as the Procedure Committee determined last week, this is an entirely new procedure. It is perhaps unfortunate that there was not more consultation between the two Houses before such an innovation was introduced, or even suggested to us. It does not appear to be a particularly good example of joined-up Parliament. I hope that in the work of the Joint Committee on the reform of this House and elsewhere, we try to ensure that, in future, when such decisions are taken, there is fuller consultation.
None the less, in the light of what has been said and of the assurances given to the Procedure Committee, this arrangement will be a useful part of the process by which Parliament will be able to discuss such matters. However, it will be only part of that process. As the Procedure Committee report makes clear, it is important that our European Union Committee continues its work considering such matters and that your Lordships' House has an opportunity to discuss them. That debate need not necessarily take place between now and the Summer Recess, given the programme that we know is ahead of us, but I hope
that we have a report from the European Union Committee before then and a debate at an early stage when we return in the autumn.
Lord Barnett: My Lords, I am not sure that I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Roper; I do not like this at all. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Howell. I am not sure whether I should address my question to the noble Lord, Lord Tordoff, or to my noble and learned friend the Leader of the House, who will move the next Motion on the Order Paper, which is also about the convention.
Apparently, the other place is doing us a favour; it is allowing us, very kindly, to be represented on its committee but not to be members of it. I do not want to be represented on its committee. I would much rather have our own Select Committees, which generally do a much better job than the other place. They are much more objective—the European Union Committee is a supreme example.
To be honest, I am reluctant to agree to this Motion because I am very unhappy about it. I do not like it at all. I should much prefer that it was not before us. I do not blame the noble Lord, Lord Tordoff; this Motion is about the second report of the Procedure Committee. I hope that the House does not like that procedure; I do not. The idea that we should be done a favour, as it were, and allowed to attend a Standing Committee of another place is not something that appeals to me. Those sitting on Select Committees in another place, as I have said previously, invariably are not at all objective and usually finish up with very great differences of opinion. That is perfectly right, but we do not get a truly objective report of the kind that our Select Committees provide.
I do not know whether the noble Lord, Lord Tordoff, wishes to stand down his Motion, as it were, and leave it to my noble and learned friend Lord Williams to tell us his view. It is a bit crazy. We have on the Order Paper a Motion on the procedure of the House relating to the convention and we have another Motion relating to the convention itself, which will be moved by my noble and learned friend. I should be glad for an explanation. Where on earth are we going?
Lord Peyton of Yeovil: My Lords, I warmly agree with everything that the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, said. I do not like this idea at all. However, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Tordoff, on the restrained way in which he told noble Lords the bad news. When he said, with a clarity that I can only envy, that we are where we are, he was introducing us to a new situation and a very uncomfortable one. Will someone explain whether the House of Commons has behaved rather carelessly or with deliberate bad manners? Personally, I believe that it is probably the latter. I hope that we can reopen this matter in some way. I also hope that the Leader of the House will restrain his natural modesty and carefulness and will play a part in the matter by speaking out clearly for your Lordships to explain their very strong distaste.
Lord Brabazon of Tara: My Lords—
Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords—
The Lord Privy Seal (Lord Williams of Mostyn): My Lords, perhaps we could hear from the noble Lord, Lord Brabazon.
Lord Brabazon of Tara: My Lords, the Chairman of Committees has already referred to the work of the European Union Committee in this matter. It is true to say that we have already taken one session of evidence on the convention from the four parliamentary representatives. We intend to take further evidence in 10 days' time from Mr Peter Hain, the Minister for Europe, specifically on the issue of the convention. He mentioned it in passing during an earlier session.
As I believe the noble Lord, Lord Roper, wanted us to do, we intend to publish a report on the matter and hope to do so before the commencement of the Summer Recess. That report could of course be the subject of a debate. But I believe, as I know do many members of my committee, that at some point a debate should be held in government time led by a Minister so that we can hear the Government's view on the convention rather than simply that of the European Union Committee.
The noble Lord, Lord Howell, asked about receiving notice of meetings, and so on. All members of the European Union Committee will receive notices of meetings from our committee Clerk. If other noble Lords would like to be added to that list, they have only to let us know and we shall do our best to accommodate them.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords, may we be told whether we are discussing the item on the Order Paper under the heading "Procedure of the House" or whether we are discussing that together with the following item on the Convention on the Future of Europe? In that way we shall know whether to make substantive points on the first Motion or whether to leave them until we reach debate on the second Motion.
The Chairman of Committees: My Lords, perhaps I may assist the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart of Swindon. We are discussing the first Motion. The second Motion is an enabling Motion and will follow this one. This is the one on which I suspect the substantive discussion will take place.
Lord Campbell-Savours: My Lords, as an apprentice in proceedings in this House, having entered the House only last year, perhaps I may intervene briefly to put an alternative view. Looking at the report, I see some longer-term implications in its wording. It says that procedurally this is a new departure. I want to know whether that means that the rules on order in the other place will now be amended so that a new Standing Order will allow for a committee of this nature to sit and involve Members of this House. That would be a departure from historic procedure.
If that were to be the case, I can imagine circumstances in the future in which it might be of great benefit to this House for such an arrangement to be available. That would particularly be so over coming years when we consider aspects of procedural reform which affect not only this place but also the operations of the other place. In those circumstances, the committee which might make recommendations to the House of Commons would do well to have in mind the views of those who were able to sit on that committee, if this were a precedent. It should make its views known and have them considered by Members of the House of Commons.
Therefore, I say to my noble friend: let us consider carefully what the committee says. If it is simply the fact that we have not been consulted fully, that disturbs us. Let us look in this tangled undergrowth to find something which may be of benefit to us in the longer run.
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