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Lord Lester of Herne Hill: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. Can he show us where the right to a full appeal on the merits for deprivation of citizenship appears in the Bill? I could find only some attenuated forms through judicial review on the basis of what are called "Wednesbury principles". Indeed, that criticism was made by the Human Rights Committee. I cannot see, although I may be wrong, that any part of the Bill gives a full right of appeal on the merits for a deprivation of citizenship.

Lord Filkin: My Lords, I shall seek to do so, but not tonight. Therefore, I shall write to the noble Lord. However, it is my understanding that there is that right.

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I turn to the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Desai, about the value of economic migrants or of migration more generally, and to the contribution by the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, similarly about the positive benefits of legal migration. As I signalled when opening for the Government, that is right. The Government strongly share the view that managed migration needs to have a much stronger recognition in society.

As has been signalled, we are an ageing population. There will be a need for skills and labour in a variety of forms. Clearly, no one believes that that implies an open door policy. It is not possible or sane to so contemplate, and no one has suggested that. There is not just a need for the highly-skilled; there is a case for looking wider, going further and having a positive approach to legal migrants. However, that must be matched at the same time by the control of illegal immigration. Many of us who have considered the issues believe that one has to make progress on both those elements at the same time.

We should not mince our words. Not much has been said in the debate about illegal immigration or the dangers and damage which that does to individuals, which is slightly surprising. We have hardly mentioned the fact that that is major criminal activity, promoted internationally; that very large sums of money are being made by some people out of people who are relatively poor and who often may not be those in greatest need of refugee status or even of a job in the United Kingdom.

Clearly the House is aware, even though we have not spoken of it, of the damage to people having to work in the black economy because of illegal workers, and the potential for exploitation and abuse, and of health and safety protections not being afforded to them. For all of those reasons I am certain, though we have not discussed it, that the House would recognise that illegal immigration cannot be part of any sane policy, but that does not imply that there is not a strong policy for the development of managed migration more vigorously in the future.

The noble Lord, Lord Judd, said quite rightly that economic migrants can be in severe hardship. He is right, but it is not realistic to think that we can solve poverty in the third world just by providing access to employment in this country to everyone who could benefit from it. It is a tragedy that we cannot, but it is not realistic to think that we can.

I turn to the thoughtful but trenchant questions asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, regarding accommodation centres. As was said in another place, both opposition parties in principle lend their support to or claim credit for inventing accommodation centres but perhaps were seeking to encourage the Government to get it right.

First, the question of "not in rural areas" was raised. The consideration of rural areas for the first few pilot accommodation centres was in recognition of the fact that most of the people who are currently supported by NASS, or by the Government through NASS, are in urban areas. Some 45,000 people are provided with

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accommodation through NASS. Looking at the schedule, very few of those are outside urban areas and are often within some of the more deprived communities in our society. That does not automatically mean that everything should be in rural areas. Nor did my right honourable friend David Blunkett so imply. However, this is a national challenge and there is no reason to think that the poorest in our society should face some of the responsibilities for addressing it.

The issue of speed was touched on by the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay. I agree with the noble Baroness and with the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, that if we can have good government or good justice quickly rather than slowly, that is by definition better. Speed matters to the people who are in the system awaiting judgment and who are being supported by the state while that goes through. Therefore the potential, if we get it right—I believe we shall—is that accommodation centres, well-managed, could provide good standards of support and refuge to people who have asked for such refuge and support and, at the same time, so order our affairs to enable the consideration processes to be dealt with together.

In that context the challenge to the Government by a number of speakers—including the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mayhew, and the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay—is to look positively at putting adjudicators on site in some way. Without going too far, that must make sense in principle. The question is whether in practice it is possible to achieve it. If we can move the judicial process to the public or the appellants, rather than vice versa, one adds more humanity to it and, it is to be hoped, builds some expertise into the system. That could potentially work well.

The arguments against accommodation centres have sometimes been that they are not integrating people into society and that we ought to be doing that. I totally agree with that if we are talking about people who have been accepted for refugee status, whose asylum claim has been accepted. But that is not the people who are in accommodation centres. They are people who are being considered for refugee status but it has not yet been granted. As soon as a person is granted refugee status, they are free to leave the accommodation centre and go where they wish in Britain, with a leave to remain, and find accommodation one hopes with the support and follow-through that the Government signal may be necessary.

The issue then concerns the speed with which accommodation centres can deal with applicants. The current rate for the most recent cases of people who have applied for asylum is that 70 per cent or so are being dealt with within two months—not looking at the backlog. If we sustain that rate, then anyone who had a refugee status recognised on the initial interview would be able to leave the accommodation centre within two months. That seems to me to be good, right and proper.

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On the other hand, those who are not accepted but exercise their right to appeal clearly do not have refugee status and therefore continue to live in the accommodation centre until their case is determined, one hopes through an accelerated process such as that we have spoken about.

Obviously the rate of success of people who appeal, though there is success, is lower. Everybody who appeals does not necessarily succeed. So as the appeals process continues, the success rate shrinks. Therefore the argument for integration of people who will not be accepted as having a right of residence in the United Kingdom is a weak one. It does not benefit people who will be expected to leave the country that we half-integrate them into society. In the mean time, we have a duty to give them proper accommodation and shelter, and to ensure that their children are given the same rights and protection as our own children in terms of education, care and protection. That does not imply that they should be integrated if we are to dis-integrate them later.

With regard to the "rural only" aspect, I should point out that we have already submitted planning applications in respect of two sites, and Pershore will follow shortly. If I gave the impression that that was under the fast-track procedure, I was wrong. I should have made clear it was under the ordinary procedure, which allows a full eight weeks for consideration of the application by the local authority. I shall not go into how the sites were evaluated. But we would be happy to consider and evaluate other sites that are brought to our attention. As David Blunkett indicated in another place, his mind is not closed on these issues.

We have made a commitment that there will be access to legal advice in the centres. The provision of that advice will depend on local circumstances. It could be an on-site lawyer, an out-reach service or through a solicitor in the local area. We are in discussion with the Legal Services Commission on what would be the best approach in each area or circumstance.

On education, I hope that we shall be able to come back in Committee to discuss that in more detail. But I believe that there is the potential for making a good and appropriate form of educational provision for children in accommodation centres. First, I shall mention a number of basic facts. The national curriculum will apply; Ofsted inspections will apply; and some LEA functions and responsibilities will still apply. As the noble Lord, Lord Lester, would be the first to point out, we have an obligation under the Human Rights Act to treat them no less well and fairly than our own children, even if they are to be in this country only for a limited number of months.

One also needs to recognise that potentially they will be moved, either to a permanent address in Britain because their refugee status has been accepted, or, unfortunately for them, out of the country. Therefore, an accommodation centre provides the potential to give some stability to their lives while that process goes through. We are committed to a proper and

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appropriate range of education provision, including nursery education, primary and secondary education, and some support for those aged 16 plus, although some may need to go out into the wider community for 16-plus education if they are there for any length of time. There is also the potential to provide some specialist support, recognising that such people could well have suffered trauma and that they could need additional English language tuition over and above what they would receive in a normal school.

The challenge to the Government is to demonstrate that in those circumstances children will benefit rather than suffer from the process. Clearly, they will not benefit more than ordinary British children, but taking their circumstances into account it will be a good and decent education. We intend to rise to that challenge.

The noble Lord, Lord Judd, also raised the issue of single women in accommodation centres. He is right to say that we need to be aware of the issues for single women. As one would expect, they will have their own residential units. They will not be mixed up with single men or anything of that kind. The whole point is to provide a supportive environment and appropriate security for all asylum seekers in that situation.

The noble Lord, Lord Judd, also raised questions about the evaluation of accommodation centres. Evaluation criteria are set out fairly clearly in the White Paper. It is most likely that the Home Office's research, development and statistics directorate would set up a process for evaluating the pilots. Clearly, one wants a fairly full evaluation, and one that is not too slow so that any beneficial lessons can be put into practice elsewhere if and when we decide to roll out accommodation centres more widely because we consider that they are a success.

The noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, asked where we are on independent country assessment, which is an important matter. We have agreed to set up an advisory committee. On Report the Home Secretary said that such a committee would have to be open and transparent and prepared to have consultations with the Government and the two main Opposition parties as to its make-up. That work will commence as soon as possible. That is a clear commitment.

The noble Lord, Lord Lester, made one of the most powerful contributions to the debate in a fairly strongly contested field in terms of the report of the Joint Committee on Human Rights to the Government. I shall touch on one or two of the points, but with regret, I shall not respond in full to all the points now out of respect for the work of the committee. It would not give adequate weight to the work that has been undertaken. Clearly, the Government respect the challenge placed by the Joint Committee. I thank the committee for its work. While I recognise the particular pressures on officials in the department at the time, I apologise for the fact that we were not as rapid as the committee would have liked in sending it our responses and evidence. I undertake to do better on future occasions.


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