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Lord Howell of Guildford: My Lords, I am very grateful indeed to the noble Baroness for that reply.

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Does she accept that we, like the Government, welcome the US positive engagement in the Middle East crisis; and, indeed, express the hope that they will persist as it will be an arduous and long process? Does the noble Baroness agree that it would be right to see President Bush's speech more as a set of principles than as a detailed blueprint? Does she also agree that it rightly reflects a good part of the Crown Prince Abdullah plan for two states living in harmony—and, we hope, constructively—side by side and for a balance of obligations to be fulfilled by both sides; that is, a reformed Palestinian Authority with a new leadership in due course, rejecting terror, matched by the end of occupation coming about in stages and a reduction, indeed, the end, of what President Bush calls "settlement activity"? I am not sure what that really means.

Does the noble Baroness agree that everything really depends on the precise nature and sequence of those obligations and on what the frontiers of the new transitional, or eventually permanent, state will be? Does she accept that the details in the full text of the speech are much more enlightening in terms of describing the heavy obligations on Israel than the newspaper reports which were carried in most newspapers this morning? Given that there really will be no advance until there is an end of suicide bombing and probably no end of suicide bombing until there are moves to end the Israeli occupation, how does the noble Baroness feel that the British Government can help take all this forward?

Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, I very much welcome what the noble Lord, Lord Howell of Guildford, said on the positive engagement of the United States. I agree with him that the speech that we have seen bears a strong resemblance to many of the points put forward earlier this year by Crown Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia in the plans that he suggested might be a possible way forward. Copies of President Bush's speech have been put in the Library of the House. I agree with the noble Lord that it makes interesting reading. It is very much a set of principles rather than details. It is worth noting that the President has said that he has asked Secretary of State Powell to work intensively with Middle Eastern and international leaders to realise the vision of a Palestinian state, focusing them on a comprehensive plan to support Palestinian reform and institution building. He has charged his Secretary of State with taking that issue forward.

The United Kingdom will do whatever it can to help in that process. The speech itself does not mention a conference, but we understand that the United States still believes that a conference would be helpful and that it would want to engage at ministerial level with Palestinians and Israelis and, of course, with members of the quartet as well. The United Kingdom will hold itself ready to help with preparing for and monitoring of any elections which might take place.

Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, if we all welcome this clear statement that there is to be a two

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state solution to the problem, we also recognise that the Palestinians have to have a state on the West Bank and that does require a rather clearer statement about the ultimate withdrawal from the settlements than is contained at the moment within President Bush's speech. The Government must make it clear that the very peculiar alliance of Christian fundamentalists and Jewish fundamentalists who feel that the whole of the land of Israel should now be part of a single state, with the implication that Palestinians should be forced to cross the Jordan, should be opposed and that a two-state solution has to have clear borders between two states sharing the land west of the Jordan.

Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, made it clear that there is to be a two-state solution. The President of the United States is an enormously influential and powerful man, but it is not for him to decide that. It will, of course, be a matter for the people of the region—the Palestinians and the Israelis—who must understand (as I am sure we hope that they all do) that the way forward on this issue is not through the appalling violence that we have seen in recent weeks but through a negotiated settlement. It is very much to be hoped that they see the wisdom not only in what is being put forward today by the President, but also, as the noble Lord, Lord Howell, said, in the way that it reflects so much of what has been put forward by Crown Prince Abdullah. It is up to both sides to take the matter forward.

The noble Lord went into details about where the individual borders of the states might run. That would be a matter for negotiations. But the President of the United States has made it clear that he thinks that the Israeli forces need to withdraw to the positions that they held prior to 28th September 2000, which refers back to the Mitchell committee, and says that the Israeli settlement activity has to stop. Those are the tenets from which he is beginning. We very much hope that this opportunity will be seized by both sides to find a peaceful solution to their very longstanding problems.

Lord Grenfell: My Lords, would my noble friend the Minister care to tell the House whether or not Her Majesty's Government agree with President Bush when he implicitly calls for the removal of Mr Arafat as leader of the Palestinian Authority? As the Palestinian Authority has already stated that it wishes to hold elections in the Palestinian area, does my noble friend agree that it would be far better if Israel were to try to help create the conditions in which fair elections could be held there so that the Palestinian people could decide for themselves who they wished to have as their leader?

Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, let us be clear what the President of the United States actually said. He said:

"Peace requires a new and different Palestinian leadership so that a Palestinian state can be born. I call on the Palestinian people to elect new leaders, leaders not compromised by terror".

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The noble Lord has said that he draws some implications from that. I agree with him that it is up to the Palestinian people to choose their leaders. We look forward to the democratic elections which, as the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, quite rightly pointed out, President Arafat has already said should be the way forward. It will require action by both the Palestinians and the Israelis to make those elections happen. Of course, they will enjoy the support of the international community both in helping them to prepare for those elections and in the monitoring that will take place around those elections. That is an important point, but it involves both the Israelis and the Palestinians seeking to make the elections fair and open.

Lord Janner of Braunstone: My Lords, does my noble friend agree that President Bush commented on the need for a different leadership because he shares the views of many of those of us who seek peace in the Middle East that the present Palestinian leadership would create a terrorist state in waiting?

Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, the reasons for President Bush saying what he did are a matter for him. Her Majesty's Government have made it very clear that we expect President Arafat and the Palestinian leadership to do everything that they can to combat terror, which has been such an appalling facet of what has happened in the Middle East. I can do no more than repeat what I said; namely, that it is the firm view of Her Majesty's Government that this is a matter for the Palestinian people. Until the elections are held, President Arafat is the elected president of the Palestinian Authority and the representative of the only organisation with which Israel can negotiate at the moment.

Justice (Northern Ireland) Bill

3.18 p.m.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, on behalf of my noble and learned friend the Lord Privy Seal, I beg to move the Motion standing in his name on the Order Paper.

Moved, That the amendments for the Report stage be marshalled and considered in the following order:

Clauses 1 and 2,

Schedule 1,

Clause 3,

Schedule 2,

Clauses 4 and 5,

Schedule 3,

Clauses 6 to 10,

Schedule 4,

Clauses 11 and 12,

Schedule 5,

Clauses 13 to 19,

Schedule 6,

Clauses 20 to 28,

Schedule 7,

Clauses 29 to 44,

Schedule 8,

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Clauses 45 to 49,

Schedule 9,

Clauses 50 to 61,

Schedule 10,

Clause 62,

Schedule 11,

Clauses 63 to 84,

Schedule 12,

Clause 85,

Schedule 13,

Clauses 86 to 92.—(Lord McIntosh of Haringey.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

Proceeds of Crime Bill

3.19 p.m.

The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Falconer of Thoroton): My Lords, I beg to move that this Report be now received.

Moved, That the Report be now received.—(Lord Falconer of Thoroton.)

Lord Ampthill: My Lords, before the noble Lord on the Woolsack puts the Question, does the noble and learned Lord have a faint feeling of embarrassment at the fact that out of the 232 amendments to be moved today and later, he is responsible for 130, or over half of them?

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