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Baroness Blatch: My Lords, I wish to pose two questions following what the Minister has just said. First, it is clear that the noble Baroness has a natural enthusiasm for language teaching. Most people have now been led to believe that something exciting will come along for the teaching of languages in primary schools. If there is to be flexibility for 14 to 16 and 19 year-olds who are now dropping languages, where is the cohort of young people who will be sufficiently competent to go on to teach languages in not only
secondary but primary schools? We are talking about an increase from 3,000 or 4,000 schools to 24,000 schools who will require language teachers. That strikes me as an example of the mismatch between aspiration and ability to deliver.My second question refers to the fact that it seems that anything is up for grabs in terms of flexibility at key stages 3 and 4, except citizenship. Why is there no flexibility in that subject? In all the answers that I have received to Written Questions, it is a compulsory subject. It must be taught, and it must be studied by all young people. It is extraordinary that the status of language is being reduced, whereas there is no allowance for flexibility in the new language of citizenship.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, citizenship is an important subject. Nothing has changed. Schools are not allowed to start dropping languages as of now. We have made no decisions, but have simply suggested ideas. I shall write to the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, on the issue of guidance. I shall also write to the noble Baroness, Lady O'Neill, which I meant to say in my remarks. The position is clear: the law is the law, and these subjects will continue to be taught.
We shall be doubling the number of teachers of primary-school French. Because we have not been teaching languages in primary schools, we do not yet know how many teachers will be available. We want to think creatively about using people who have language specialisms, but who are not necessarily qualified teachers. Thinking of the music example, there are opportunities to teach languages in primary school.
Baroness O'Neill of Bengarve: My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for her enthusiastic remarks and the raft of ideas, which are interesting.
It is clear that the amendment cannot speak to the real issue that is of such concern far beyond this House because the material lies beyond the Bill in the Green Paper. It is not a myth that we are suffering from acute planning blight. If one is deep in a hole and has only a rickety ladder by which to climb out, it would be a pity to burn the ladder before one has got out of the hole. I fear that that might be what is happening on this issue. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 117A and 118 not moved.]
Lord Brightman moved Amendment No. 119:
- Page 54, line 24, at end insert ", and
The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, I shall be brief. This is a repeat of an amendment that I moved and then withdrew at the Committee stage.
Its purpose is to give a student in a grant-maintained school a statutory option to study geography up to school-leaving age, instead of stopping at the age of 14, as at present, and as under the Bill. As I said in Committee, geography is not only a matter of knowing
If we dismiss geography from the national curriculum at too early an age, we shall end up with fewer trained geographers and we shall be less well equipped to deal with the problems that I have mentioned.
When I withdrew my amendment in Committee, the noble Baroness the Minister responded readily to my suggestion that we might meet to discuss the future of geography in the national curriculum. That meeting has taken place, and I am extremely grateful to the noble Baroness for allowing me almost an hour to discuss geography with her.
The Minister followed our discussion with a letter to me recording the interview and summarising her views on the proper place of geography in the national curriculum. I shall quote a few lines from her letter, which reads:
As matters stand, many if not most grant-maintained schools offer geography up to school leaving age on a purely voluntary basis. They do not have to do so by law. My amendment, if it were accepted as part of the national curriculum at key stage 4, would require a grant-maintained school to offer geography up to the age of 16 to those students who wished to study it. That would avoid a highly undesirable situation, which can obtain at present, in which a student of geography may have to change schools to continue his geographical studies.
I turn to another subject area concerning the difference between core foundation studies and other foundation studies, which are referred to in Section 354 of the current Education Act 1996 and in Clauses 80 and 81 of the Bill. In Committee on 28th May, I commented (at col. 1187 of the Official Report) on the apparent absence of any definition of those expressions and the need for a definition. I have since learned that the expressions stem from Section 2 of the Education Reform Act 1988, now repealed, where they also appear without definition. Despite the inconvenience of having no definition of core foundation and non-core foundation studies, I have come to the conclusion that it would be a mistake and unhelpful to put down any amendment at this stage.
I had a duty to declare my interest in geography. I regard myself as having discharged that duty in Committee. Therefore, I shall not bore your Lordships by repeating it. I beg to move.
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, I have enormous sympathy with the case that has been put by the noble and learned Lord, but perhaps I may pose a question. The letter from the noble Baroness was very warm and enthusiastic—indeed, it was both sympathetic and empathetic—in regard to geography being important and wanting to encourage it and develop it in the curriculum at key stage 4. However, if it is to be offered as a subject for young people to study as of right, it has to appear somewhere in legislation for a child to be able to exercise his or her right to learn geography if it is being singled out as an entitlement in secondary schools. Therefore, the letter on its own is not enough. If the terms of the amendment are to be acceded to, then the amendment itself ought to appear on the face of the Bill.
Lord Lucas: My Lords, it is quite clear that geographers are better organised than historians. Personally, I would put history up there with geography, or even a little ahead of it. What is crucial is that people learn to study people. Our education needs to include not merely mathematics, sciences and dry facts; it should get down to the interaction between people and an understanding of how people work. We are going to live the rest of our lives among people. The more that we know about them and the more we know about ourselves and where we are coming from, the better. But I place my hopes in Clause 82.
Baroness O'Neill of Bengarve: My Lords, like the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, I have anxieties about history, as I do about geography. These are based once again on a proleptic reading of the Green Paper, which talks about an entitlement to "a humanities subject" for 14 to 16 year-olds. I suppose that history, English literature and geography may be asked to compete for their place in a school.
Lord Lucas: My Lords, sadly, the answer seems to be the humanities GCSE, which unfortunately is now prevalent.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, I shall try not to detain the House for long. I was delighted to meet with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brightman. Indeed, it was a great honour for me, and I enjoyed our discussions. Perhaps I may say to the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, that my letter goes on to state:
Clause 81 re-enacts the provisions of Section 354 of the 1996 Education Act, in relation to key stage 4 only. It lists the subjects of the national curriculum that are currently compulsory at key stage 4 and which were
As I said, we recently concluded the consultation, and it would be inappropriate to alter the current curriculum requirements at this stage, before responses to the consultation can be fully considered and without the benefit of a consultation on this particular change.
As the noble Baroness, Lady O'Neill, has said, the relevant proposal in the Green Paper is that pupils should have an entitlement to a subject in the humanities and a subject in the arts which schools will be obliged to make available to pupils who wish to take them. At this stage, we are still considering responses to the consultation and have taken no final decisions on curriculum changes. Therefore, while I cannot give the noble and learned Lord the assurance that he is seeking that all pupils will have an entitlement to geography under the new proposals, I hope that he will be reassured from my letter and from my remarks that our proposals to offer all pupils an entitlement to choose a humanities subject represent an advance for geography from the current statutory position.
This House will have the opportunity to debate any future changes to the curriculum, and no doubt to discuss the merits of history, English literature, geography and other subjects. Such discussions are important. We shall obviously have debates in this House before any changes are made. Meanwhile, with genuine respect, I ask the noble and learned Lord to withdraw his amendment.
(f) geography"
"I agreed with you at our meeting that it would be good to see a position where any child wishing to study geography during key stage four"—
that is up to school leaving age—
"would be able to do so . . . I want us to work together to promote and enhance the teaching of geography".
I could not have expected a better response to our discussion.
7.30 p.m.
"But we will need to consider very carefully the implications for schools of delivering entitlements—and, as the Green Paper notes, where changes to the curriculum are envisaged, there will be consultation on the detail of the changes. I am sure you will agree that we must proceed with care and that I have been as positive as I can be at this point".
I am happy to give the noble Baroness a copy of my letter if it would be of use to her.
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