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Baroness David: My Lords, I do apologise for rising to speak to Amendment No. 125 after eleven o'clock at night—if I have counted correctly, there are 11 noble Lords in the Chamber—but I feel very strongly about this amendment. It is about a subject, hearing the views of children, about which I have spoken on many occasions over a very long time. Here is another opportunity, and I am afraid that I am going to take advantage of it. The other reason is that I have had very strong support for this amendment, for which I am grateful, from the Liberal Democrat Benches and from the noble Baroness, Lady Darcy de Knayth, who has had to leave, for which she sends her great apologies.

I am grateful for the Minister's comments. The Government have gone some way, but not, I think, far enough. The purpose of this new clause is to fulfil our obligations under the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. Under Article 12, states must,

"assure to the child who is capable of forming his or her own views the right to express those views freely in all matters affecting the child, the views of the child being given due weight in accordance with the age and maturity of the child".

When the Committee on the Rights of the Child examined the UK's initial report back in 1995, it noted that this and other general principles in the convention were not reflected consistently in our law and recommended that they should be. We regularly tell other countries that they must fulfil their human rights obligations, and we must do so too. This Government have done much towards creating a culture of human rights in this country. Building that culture for the future depends on children. Creating schools in which children feel valued as individual people whose views are to be taken seriously must be a big part of that process. So we need to deliver a clear message to local authorities, and to schools, and, above all, to children.

Saying that schools must have regard to any guidance on consultation which the Secretary of State may give from time to time is not a clear message and is far from reflecting the clarity of Article 12. The

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Government's new clause is not satisfactory. Statutory guidance sounds strong and it is strong when the guidance relates to a body of legal duties, as with the code of practice on special educational needs, for example. But there is a complete vacuum in education law on respecting pupils' views.

The Government's new clause simply leaves it to the Secretary of State to decide how far schools should be advised to go. The new clause does not in fact implement Article 12 at all. Local authorities and governing bodies will have to have regard to any guidance and should follow it unless they can think of a reasonable reason not to. The Minister has stated that Ofsted will check up on what schools are doing. In Committee the Minister on 9th May suggested that guidance will offer schools a flexible menu of options and allow schools to adopt a best fit model of participation and adapt it over time. The legal duty in our new clause does not prescribe a particular model of participation. The flexible menu will still be there to be developed and owned by schools themselves, but backed by an essential imperative to respect the principle.

Of course schools need guidance and the encouragement of rigorous inspection. But all of that needs to be based on a clear legal duty. What seemed right to the current Secretary of State when she moved a similar "legal duty" amendment to the Education Bill 1993 is more than right today. One of our new schools Minister's last initiatives as a Back-Bencher was to table a similar new clause in Committee on this Bill in the other place. Our ministerial team are obviously really with us on this issue! The Government should have the courage of their strong human rights convictions and go for a proper duty as the basis for guidance and for inspection.

For more than a quarter of a century, from the Children Act 1975, local authorities have been under a duty to respect the views of children in care. That duty was re-enacted and broadened in the Children Act 1989. There was no question of reducing that clear duty to statutory guidance. In Scotland the first education Act to be passed by the new Parliament includes a statutory duty to have regard to children's views in all decisions that significantly affect them. In education law there has been a principle of respect for parents' wishes in primary legislation since the Education Act 1944, and probably before that.

This really is not an issue to be hesitant over. We know that good schools already respect pupils' views on decisions that affect them; some schools have always done so. The purpose of a legal duty is to ensure that all schools do so in relation to all significant decisions affecting pupils. As far as I can see, the only possible reason for preferring the Government's new clause to mine is if one does not want all schools to be required to respect children's views.

One specific issue about the Government's new clause is its exclusion of nursery age pupils from even guidance on consultation. That seems very strange; there is no age limit on Article 12, and the habit of seeking and respecting children's views, which is not at

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all the same thing as following their views, should start young. That is important. You do not necessarily have to follow their views but you must try to hear them.

NGOs, including Save the Children and the National Early Years Network, have promoted very positive initiatives to hear young children's views. The pioneering Children and Young People's Unit, a cross-cutting unit placed in the Department for Education and Skills, has been promoting participation by children across government. The DfES responded earlier this month with its action plan for the involvement of children and young people, which was entitled, Listening to Learn. Its vision is of,

"a department which is young-person friendly and accessible, responsive to their needs and aspirations, and renowned throughout government for leading change in this area".

I note that on page 12 the report prejudges the result of this debate and suggests that the department will develop statutory guidance on consulting pupils on decisions that affect them. However, if the department is serious about its vision and the timetable for achieving it, it must place a clear legal duty in the Bill. It has to be admitted that until very recently the Department for Education and Skills has lagged well behind the Department of Health in terms of respecting children's views. If it wants to be seen to be leading change, here is the opportunity. The Department for Education and Skills has not had a terribly good reputation in the past for being forward looking. Here is an opportunity for it to try to make that better.

If the Minister suggests that there are technical problems with the amendment, as there probably are—there usually are—there is plenty of time to put that right if the Government, having accepted the principle that pupils have a right to be consulted, concede that there should be a clear legal duty.

I hope that the Minister will change the Government's previous view and support the amendment. I beg to move.

10.15 p.m.

Baroness Walmsley: My Lords, I rise to support the amendment moved by the noble Baroness, Lady David. I do not feel that government Amendment No. 124 is good enough, for three reasons. First, the Government are under a legal obligation to implement the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, which was ratified in December 1991. I do not see how the Government can possibly resist having a statutory right rather than guidance. When the United Kingdom Government were last examined by the Committee on the Rights of the Child, which is the international treaty monitoring body for the CRC, it strongly recommended action in schools in terms of implementing Article 12, which gives children the right to have their views considered. The Government will next be scrutinised by the committee in the autumn. All the indications are that that committee is more or less certain to issue very critical comments about the UK's treatment of its children. The lack of a statutory

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right to be consulted is only one of many criticisms that are likely to be made. I am sure that the Government would not wish to be so embarrassed.

The second reason is that consultation with children and listening to their views engenders a positive relationship between students and their teachers and it stresses a mutual respect and atmosphere of co-operation. The Government state that they would like more young people to be involved in politics and to use their right to vote. They cannot expect young voters to spring fully formed from the womb of the school and to rush to the polling station to put their vote in the ballot box unless they have got used to consultation, to considering the issues and to having those views respected. This would be a very good way of doing that. It would help to encourage young people to participate in the political process when they reach the voting age.

Finally, the approach would bring English education law into line with developments in other public services. The noble Baroness, Lady David, mentioned the fact that the health service and social services consult children. I also refer to Scottish legislation and education law in many European countries; Scotland already gives pupils that statutory right. That legislation has been in force for more than a year and there have been no reported difficulties for schools or pupils. For those three very good reasons, I support the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady David.

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