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Baroness Blatch: My Lords, I believe that the amendment would assist schools and their heads and governors if there were a duty on the Secretary of State to limit regulation and to limit the flow of paper into schools to only that which is necessary or essential and which at the end of the day enhances the experience of a child in the classroom.

There is a real world out there, and then there is the Department for Education and Skills. I have listened to everything that the Minister has said. I know that she is sincere in her belief in what she is saying. But those working in schools do not say these sorts of things. They do not say that the only documents that come through the door are those which are absolutely essential, or that the only documents they receive are those that add to and enhance the educational experience of the children.

I am almost offended by the examples of essential information given by the Minister; namely, to do with the safety of children, to do with emergencies that crop up without notice. Of course there has to be communication between the department and the schools, but the Minister uses those examples against what I am arguing about— the unnecessary information and documentation that goes out to schools.

In relation to subsection (3), the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, was concerned that some view should be taken when regulations are passed down to schools about how much time is expected for a primary school or a secondary school to interpret a document and to implement whatever measures it contains. One of the problems is that regulations are passed inexorably downwards to schools, without any thought whatever about how much time needs to be expended on interpreting them, understanding the legalese and making sure that they are implemented—knowing that down the road will come Ofsted to inspect schools to see whether they have carried out the requirements. So I believe that subsection (3) is important.

Nevertheless, I take the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Monson. If the Government believe that the thrust of the amendment is right, and if my Liberal Democrat colleagues believe that it is right and really do have sympathy with schools because they are inundated with bureaucracy, let them support this amendment. Let the Government make sense of the duty that I wish to place on the Secretary of State to limit and control the flow of paper and regulations into our schools.

Schools will not be impressed by the good will of the noble Lord, Lord Dearing, the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, the Minister or anyone else who says: "We have sympathy with the schools. We really do think that they are overburdened with bureaucracy. We really do think that there is too much of it. We do think that there are too many regulations. But we shall

3 Jul 2002 : Column 264

not go into the Lobby to support the amendment". The schools will not be over-impressed with that. They will be very impressed with this House if it first of all recognises that there is a problem—everyone who has spoken today, including the Minister, agrees that there is an issue. If they came into the Lobby with me and gave the Government the opportunity suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Monson, to tidy up this amendment—so that it is not just a practical issue for schools, but in such a way that bureaucracy will be reduced and time will be freed up to do what they should be doing; namely, teaching children—then the proposal will be made more deliverable as a result of the expertise which the Minister has at her command and which I do not.

There should be a bonfire of unnecessary regulations and documents which tax the precious time of governors, heads and teachers. I wish to test the opinion of the House.

5.35 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 13) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 135; Not-Contents, 128.

Division No. 2

CONTENTS
Aberdare, L.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Arran, E.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Bagri, L.
Black of Crossharbour, L.
Blackwell, L.
Blaker, L.
Blatch, B.
Boardman, L.
Bowness, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Brigstocke, B.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnham, L.
Buscombe, B.
Byford, B.
Caithness, E.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carrington, L.
Chadlington, L.
Clark of Kempston, L.
Coe, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Craigavon, V.
Crickhowell, L.
Cumberlege, B.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Denham, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Feldman, L.
Ferrers, E.
Flather, B.
Fookes, B.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Garel-Jones, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goschen, V.
Gray of Contin, L.
Hambro, L.
Hanham, B.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Hogg, B.
Holderness, L.
Home, E.
Hooper, B.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hurd of Westwell, L.
Hylton, L.
James of Holland Park, B.
Jopling, L.
Kimball, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
Kirkham, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lang of Monkton, L.
Listowel, E.
Lucas, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
MacLaurin of Knebworth, L.
Mancroft, L.
Marlesford, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Monson, L.
Montagu of Beaulieu, L.
Montrose, D.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Moynihan, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Noakes, B.
Northbrook, L.
Norton of Louth, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Onslow, E.
Oppenheim-Barnes, B.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Peel, E.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Platt of Writtle, B.
Powell of Bayswater, L.
Reay, L.
Rees, L.
Renton, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rotherwick, L. [Teller]
Sainsbury of Preston Candover, L.
St John of Fawsley, L.
Seccombe, B. [Teller]
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Shrewsbury, E.
Skelmersdale, L.
Stevens of Ludgate, L.
Stewartby, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Tebbit, L.
Thatcher, B.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Trumpington, B.
Tugendhat, L.
Vivian, L.
Waddington, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Wakeham, L.
Walker of Worcester, L.
Weatherill, L.
Williamson of Horton, L.

NOT-CONTENTS
Acton, L.
Alli, L.
Amos, B.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bach, L.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Billingham, B.
Blackstone, B.
Bragg, L.
Brennan, L.
Brett, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Bruce of Donington, L.
Burlison, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Chandos, V.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Craig of Radley, L.
Crawley, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Dearing, L.
Desai, L.
Dixon, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Elis-Thomas, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Evans of Watford, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gilbert, L.
Golding, B.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Grenfell, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Islwyn, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jeger, B.
Jones, L.
Jordan, L.
Judd, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Layard, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Mitchell, L.
Morgan, L.
Morgan of Huyton, B.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Nicol, B.
Orme, L.
Parekh, L.
Patel, L.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Pendry, L.
Peston, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Radice, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Rea, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Rooker, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Serota, B.
Sheldon, L.
Simon, V.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Varley, L.
Walker of Doncaster, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L. (Lord Privy Seal)

Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.

3 Jul 2002 : Column 266

5.46 p.m.

Clause 19 [Governing bodies]:

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