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Baroness Park of Monmouth: My Lords, before the noble and learned Lord sits down, I seek a little clarification. I see the point about Amendment 75C for which I am very grateful to my noble friend Lord Brooke for identification. That is in a different category and I entirely accept that my amendment is not appropriate in that case.
However, do I understand that the Minister is unable to accept all the other amendments that I propose or not? I am not perfectly clear.
Lord Williams of Mostyn: My Lords, that is my position. I am quite happy to go through them all, but my point is a common one although it has to be varied according to the amendments; namely, that one requires the flexibility referred to. It is a mistake to exclude from the possibility of assistance voluntary organisations because the noble Baroness limits
everything to statutory organisations and does not allow the Secretary of State even to consider the most worthy, experienced and well regarded of voluntary organisations.
Baroness Park of Monmouth: My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in support of my amendment. I beg leave to test the opinion of the House.
4.36 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 72A) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 84; Not-Contents, 151.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Ampthill, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Astor of Hever, L.
Blaker, L.
Blatch, B.
Boardman, L.
Bowness, L.
Brigstocke, B.
Brittan of Spennithorne, L.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brookeborough, V.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnham, L.
Byford, B.
Caithness, E.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Clark of Kempston, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cooke of Islandreagh, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L. [Teller]
Cox, B.
Craig of Radley, L.
Crathorne, L.
Crickhowell, L.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
Denham, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Ferrers, E.
Fookes, B.
Fowler, L.
Freeman, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Glentoran, L.
Goschen, V.
Griffiths of Fforestfach, L.
Hayhoe, L.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Holderness, L.
Hooper, B.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Kilclooney, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
Kingsland, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Laird, L.
Maginnis of Drumglass, L.
Mancroft, L.
Marlesford, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Monson, L.
Montrose, D.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Moynihan, L.
Noakes, B.
Norton of Louth, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Rawlings, B.
Reay, L.
Rees, L.
Renton, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rogan, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Seccombe, B. [Teller]
Selsdon, L.
Strange, B.
Swinfen, L.
Tebbit, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Vivian, L.
Weatherill, L.
Willoughby de Broke, L.
Acton, L.
Addington, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Amos, B.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Avebury, L.
Bach, L.
Barker, B.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Blackstone, B.
Borrie, L.
Bragg, L.
Brennan, L.
Brett, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Bruce of Donington, L.
Burlison, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Chandos, V.
Chorley, L.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Crawley, B.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Desai, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Falkender, B.
Falkland, V.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Finlay of Llandaff, B.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gavron, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gilbert, L.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Golding, B.
Goodhart, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Greaves, L.
Grenfell, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Hamwee, B.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Hylton, L.
Jones, L.
Judd, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Layard, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Levy, L.
Lipsey, L.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lockwood, B.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Mitchell, L.
Morgan, L.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Murray of Epping Forest, L.
Newby, L.
Nicol, B.
Parekh, L.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Pendry, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Rea, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Rennard, L.
Richard, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roll of Ipsden, L.
Roper, L.
Russell, E.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
St. John of Bletso, L.
Sandberg, L.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Serota, B.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Sheldon, L.
Simon, V.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Smith of Leigh, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Temple-Morris, L.
Tenby, V.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Whitaker, B.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L. (Lord Privy Seal)
Williamson of Horton, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.
4.47 p.m.
[Amendments Nos. 73 and 73A not moved.]
Clause 54 [Community responsibility orders]:
[Amendments Nos. 74 and 74A not moved.]
Clause 55 [Custody care orders]:
[Amendments Nos. 75 to 75C not moved.]
Clause 56 [Youth conferences and youth conference plans]:
Lord Glentoran moved Amendment No. 76:
- Page 43, line 42, at end insert "; or
The noble Lord said: My Lords, Amendment No. 76 returns to my questions and suggestions on the inclusion of the Probation Board of Northern Ireland in this issue. In Grand Committee the Minister explained that existing probation officers who meet the required criteria for youth conference co-ordinators will be welcome to apply for such posts. I refer noble Lords to col. CWH 146 of Hansard of 18th June 2002. I am grateful to the Minister for his explanation, and I understand why the probation board does not appear on the face of the Bill.
However, I am concerned that such people may not be aware that they are able to apply for posts as youth conference co-ordinators. The board was anxious for us to raise the issue. It believes that existing probation officers are some of the best people to carry out the role of conference co-ordinators. The Minister suggested that our proceedings are scrutinised carefully in Northern Ireland. I agree with him. Perhaps the issue could be explained again on the Floor of the House and we could flag it up to ensure that people in the Northern Ireland probation service understand that they are qualified to play that role and know how to set about it. If the Government could give me some indication that through the administration a letter or pamphlet would go to members of the board informing them that they would be welcome and qualified to play that role, I would be happy. I beg to move.
Lord Molyneaux of Killead: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, has been modest in his requirement. He knows that if one were to ask the proverbial man in the street which body would be best qualified to deal with this delicate matter, the name that would automatically come to his tongue would be the Northern Ireland Probation Board. It is respected throughout the entire community. It is seen and held to be impartial and I cannot think of any body better qualified to deal with the matter.
Lord Williams of Mostyn: My Lords, I am most grateful for the way in which the noble Lord put his amendment. I hope that I can say unambiguously words that will assist his purpose. As noble Lords will know, I wrote to the noble Baroness, Lady O'Cathain, on 25th June and copied the letter to all noble Lords who had shown an interest in our earlier proceedings, but I am happy to make the matter plain on the record again.
Existing probation officers who meet the required criteria for youth conference co-ordinators will be most welcome to apply for posts. If successful, they will then—as the Bill indicates—become civil servants within the youth conferencing agency. Recruitment will be by means of public advertisement. Everyone who is qualified—and I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Molyneaux, that that may include a large number of probation officers, some of whom may not wish to apply and some of whom will—may apply. To assist further the House, and in particular, the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, I will undertake that the Northern Ireland Office will write formally to the head of the probation service in Northern Ireland indicating what I have just said. I hope that that is of assistance.
( ) the probation board of Northern Ireland"
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