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Lord Swinfen: My Lords, when the noble and learned Lord replies, perhaps he will tell the House what nation in the civilised world does not display either in or on its courts its national symbol.
Lord Tebbit: My Lords, I shall not detain the House for long. My support for the amendments springs from my objection to the greater part of the Bill. It is, as the noble Lord, Lord Fitt, said, another one-way street of legislation. It is in danger of alienating the majority community. On Monday, I said:
- "The more the Government talk about the peace process, the normalisation of affairs in Northern Ireland and the end of emergency, the more frequently we find them legislating to make permanent a different standard of justice in the two parts of the kingdom".—[Official Report, 1/7/02; col. 90.]
My feelings about these matters are unchanged. The noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney, asked the Government to listen to the voices of the people of Northern Ireland. I think that that was also the message of the noble Lord, Lord Fitt. The trouble is that all too often the Government do not listen to people's voices. They listen to the gunfire, react even to the clicking of a safety catch and run to offer more concessions to those with the guns and to alienate further those who would walk the path of peace.
Lord Monson: My Lords, I agree with my noble friend Lord Alton on a wide variety of subjects, but I am bound to say that I find his suggestion bizarre in the extreme. One might as well recommend that courtrooms south of the border should be obliged to display royal symbols as well as republican ones.
Lord Kilclooney: My Lords, is it not surprising that the British Government are proposing to remove the royal coat of arms from the external walls of Northern Ireland court houses when, 80 years after independence in the Republic it remains on the external walls of courthouses south of the border?
Lord Monson: My Lords, that is an interesting piece of news. I did not know that. However, I do not think that there is any suggestion that new coats of arms be erected when new courthouses are built. In any case, it is impossible to imagine that the French would ever allow the symbols of the French state to be removed from the exterior or interior of courthouses in Corsica, whatever the pressure from a terrorist minority on that island.
Once again, as on the matter of the judicial oath, the Government appear to be capitulating to a hardline minority—to be precise, not simply a minority but a minority of a minority, amounting to no more than 12 to 13 per cent of the population of the Province.
Lord Dubs: My Lords, ever since the Belfast agreement—indeed, since the run-up to it—there have had to be compromises in Northern Ireland. Every Secretary of State has said so and has said that each community must make concessions, that no one can have everything that they want, but that by achieving a compromise—compromises are necessary—we can move forward on the basis of some sort of consent. That has been the basis of the agreement.
As I have said previously, I regret that the Social Democratic and Labour Party, the main voice of nationalism in Northern Ireland, is not heard in this House. Our debates are the poorer for the lack of that voice. I cannot possibly speak for one side or the other in Northern Ireland; I make no claim to do so. But no one else in this House can do so either. There is therefore a weakness in that we do not reflect the many views in Northern Ireland.
Lord Tebbit: My Lords, the noble Lord has previously made this point about the lack of representatives of the SDLP and a legitimate view in Northern Ireland. Last time, the noble Lord, Lord Fitt, put him right. He told him: they have been offered the chance; they refused it.
Lord Williams of Mostyn: My Lords, before my noble friend continues, I remind your Lordships that we are on Report and that we have different rules and conventions on Report from those in Committee.
Lord Dubs: My Lords, I make that point simply because I am trying to get a sense of the views expressed in the House and to balance them against other views held by many people—not the majority—in Northern Ireland. It is on that basis that we must decide whether the Government have got it right in the Bill and therefore whether the amendments are appropriate. I contend that the Government have had to compromise. It is not possible to move forward in any way other than by compromise. I fully understand the strength of view on the unionist side; I understand the views on the nationalist side.
Lord Maginnis of Drumglass: My Lords—
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: My Lords, I remind the House that noble Lords may speak only once on each amendment on Report. No one may speak after the Minister has spoken.
5.30 p.m.
Lord Dubs: My Lords, I shall not detain the House for more than a moment or two. I contend that the Government have sought to achieve a compromise on the difficult issue of the royal coat of arms. They have
achieved a worthwhile compromise, which, with good will, could be accepted by all people in Northern Ireland.It is not a matter of making concessions to one side or the other; it is a matter of saying, "Let's have a compromise because that is the best way forward". In the end, the most important issue relating to the courts in Northern Ireland is the quality of the justice that they dispense.
Lord Hylton: My Lords, we have been over this ground a good many times. Nevertheless, I want to follow on from what the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, said. In Committee, I mentioned the fact that the Northern Ireland Assembly had chosen the flax flower as its shared symbol. I commended that as a highly sensible and construction decision on what we all acknowledge to be a deeply divided society.
I have been listening to the debate, and it has just occurred to me that, here in London, on the outside of the Old Bailey, there is a large figure of Justice holding the scales evenly balanced. Could that be a suitable symbol for the exterior—or even the interior—of courts in Northern Ireland?
Lord Cooke of Islandreagh: My Lords, the matter is simple. It is a fundamental part of the agreement that Northern Ireland is an integral part of the United Kingdom and will remain as such, so long as the majority desires that. It is fundamental that, in part of the United Kingdom, the courts of justice are the courts under the Crown, and it is only proper to show that that is so. It should show people that the courts have nothing to do with politics and administer justice under the Crown. So far as I am aware, no one has ever objected to having the crown on a courthouse as such.
Baroness Park of Monmouth: My Lords, the noble Lord has, essentially, said what I was going to say. However, it bears saying again.
We are frequently reminded of the sanctity of the Belfast agreement and the importance of the peace process. That agreement states clearly that, while,
- "the present wish of a majority of the people of Northern Ireland, freely exercised and legitimate, is to maintain the Union",
Lord Smith of Clifton: My Lords, in response to what the noble Baroness, Lady Park of Monmouth, has said, one could say that it is precisely because the agreement acknowledges that, for the time being and until there is a vote the other way, Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom, that there must be concessions, as the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, suggested. That is why there must be a compromise. That is why the two communities must adjust and acknowledge the outcome of the Belfast agreement, which is that there
must be some form of compromise. That is implicit in the overall principle that Northern Ireland remains part of the United Kingdom until the citizens of Northern Ireland decide otherwise.
Lord Glentoran: My Lords, we have had a long debate on the subject, and it might be appropriate if, with the agreement of your Lordships, I were to speak to Amendment No. 86, which would leave out Clause 65, even though it is not in this group of amendments.
Many views have been expressed in the House. I have listened many times to the noble Lord, Lord Alton of Liverpool, and have done so with admiration for the sincerity of what he said. I still admire his sincerity, but, today, I feel that he is, perhaps, not quite in the real world on these matters.
My reason for tabling an amendment to leave out the whole clause goes back to the theme of the arguments that I have made throughout the passage of the Bill. First, as has been said, Northern Ireland is wholly and integrally a part of the United Kingdom. There is no question about its sovereignty or about where that sovereignty lies. Secondly, the Good Friday agreement is, as the noble Lords, Lord Smith of Clifton and Lord Dubs, said, a compromise agreement. It is full of compromises. As I said from the Dispatch Box on Monday night, we should congratulate the Government on setting it up and getting it to where they got it. However, this Bill is about the judicial system of a part of the United Kingdom. Political compromise should be no part of a judicial system, for goodness' sake.
The judges do not take their authority from Mr Trimble or Mr Adams or whoever the First Minister or Deputy First Minister is. Where do they take it from? They take it from the Sovereign of the United Kingdom. If the judges take their authority from the Sovereign of the United Kingdom, everybody who lives in Northern Ireland—of whatever persuasion—is bound by the law of Northern Ireland. That law is operated under the authority of our Sovereign. If that is the situation—leaving aside the objections of those who refuse to accept the authority of the legal system in Northern Ireland, of whom there are a few—what is wrong with having Her Majesty's coat of arms displayed where it has always been and where it is to be found in every courthouse in the rest of the United Kingdom?
I have also criticised the Government for raising hares that should not have been raised. They have raised the temperature unnecessarily on some matters. In the agreement, it was accepted by all parties that there were flags, symbols and emblems that were sensitive matters for all parties to the agreement and that, where possible, they should not be removed or banned. The noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney, spoke just now about the fact that the coat of arms can be found on courthouses in the Republic. I asked Jonathan Caine, who works for us in Central Office, to find out for me how often the royal title is used in the Republic of Ireland. He found, I think, two pages of "Royal This", "Royal That" and "Royal The Other" in the
Yellow Pages. What is more, if noble Lords go to Leinster House, they will see the shamrock well painted on the gates: they will also still see the crown. If the Government of the Republic of Ireland are content to operate in and around the crowns, thistles and other symbols of the United Kingdom and of the Ireland of the old days, why must we be so destructive in this way? It is not necessary to raise these hares.
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