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Lord Glentoran: My Lords, for clarity, is the noble Lord speaking to Amendments Nos. 89B, 89C and 90A, which refer to the Police Service of Northern Ireland and DPPs, as well as to Amendment No. 87ZA?
Lord Maginnis of Drumglass: Yes, my Lords. I am trying, without impinging on the time of noble Lords, to paint the overall picture of how all of these matters impinge on each other.
I was saying that district council areas are coterminous with police areas of command and with DPPs but that there has been no clarity about whether they are coterminous with the proposed community safety partnerships. We must now look critically at the whole concept and discover whether we can put in place an arrangement that will benefit society, that will secure value for money and which will not be exploited—that has been the huge difficulty that we have had so far.
I was diverted for a moment by the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, who asked whether I was speaking to Amendment No. 89. I thought that we had moved on to Amendments Nos. 89B and 89C.
Lord Williams of Mostyn: My Lords, perhaps I can help; I think that there is some confusion. We are actually dealing with Amendments Nos. 87ZA and 89A. I think that the noble Lord has not been speaking to those amendments, which is why the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, courteously inquired whether the noble Lord, Lord Maginnis, had perhaps misheard the Deputy Speaker call the amendments. Amendments Nos. 87ZA and 89A are both limited amendments. With great respect, I do not think that the noble Lord is speaking to the amendments that have been called.
Lord Maginnis of Drumglass: My Lords, I apologise to noble Lords. I did mishear. Although I have strayed beyond the scope of those amendments, my comments apply very much to Amendment No. 87ZA. I obviously cannot withdraw the points that I have
made. However, they are pertinent to the whole question of whether we should establish community safety partnerships—if they are established—within the context of existing boundaries where other agencies and partnerships are coterminous with the district council area.I turn to Amendment No. 89A. I have rightly, if accidentally, indicated our problems. My proposal in Amendment No. 89A is that if there is to be a community safety partnership, that must be vested in local government membership. We have had a couple of unfortunate instances of amalgams and partnerships that did not have clarity about who had primacy and which ran into financial difficulty in terms of accountability. If we have an area that is coterminous with all of those various agencies and if we have a district council controlling whatever amount of money may be become available if the partnerships are established, those of us who are publicly accountable will know exactly what is happening. One reason why that should be the case is that, otherwise, pressure will be put on civil servants, who have no chance to answer back when certain responsibilities are imposed on them which are outside the spirit of what I believe is intended to be achieved in this regard.
I apologise to noble Lords for moving beyond the scope of the amendment. But that saves the House from having to listen to me at greater length later on. I am grateful.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, it would help me if he could indicate whether he wishes to move Amendment No. 87ZA and speak to Amendment Nos. 89A, 89B, 89C and 90A. I believe that it would assist the House were he to agree that in effect that is what he has done and then we can have one debate.
Lord Maginnis of Drumglass: My Lords, the noble Baroness knows that it would always be my intention to try to assist the House. I may, in error, have managed to bring together five amendments. I beg to move.
7 p.m.
Lord Alton of Liverpool: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Maginnis, has exhibited his usual charm in thanking the noble Baroness, Lady Farrington, for the sensible way forward that she has suggested. He is quite right in saying that the amendments in the second group which have been referred to touch on the same subject.
The reason why, on balance, I disagree with my noble friend is that certainly from my own experience of local government on Merseyside where partnerships were established, they were enriched by other statutory organisations becoming involved in them. If they become too local government focused and orientated, I do not believe that that would necessarily be to the advantage of the partnership.
I believe that the noble Lord is well aware that membership of the partnerships is designed to include health and social services boards, education, library and probation boards, the police, the Northern Ireland housing executive and other statutory organisations. When the Minister replies perhaps he will be able to confirm that the problem is that with the review of public administration which is currently under way by the executive, it is necessary in the meantime to reserve power to the Secretary of State because until the review has been concluded we do not know exactly who the statutory agencies are.
The effect of Amendment No. 89A, were it to be passed by your Lordships this evening, reserving, for instance, the chairmanship and the administration in the local government membership of that partnership, would stunt and limit it. By reserving power to people who are elected representatives in local government would make the position far too narrow. It is right to trust the Secretary of State in this matter. I believe that the partnerships will be to the advantage of Northern Ireland if they work out as they have done in other urban areas in England. I know how passionate and committed is the noble Lord to the upholding of law and ensuring that the policing agencies get the public support to which they are entitled and that those responsible for breaking the law are brought to justice.
If he were right in any sense that people not committed to upholding the law were able to infiltrate these partnerships and take them over, I am certain that in those circumstances the Secretary of State would remove those members from the partnerships who behaved in that way. It would help if the Minister were able to confirm that to be the case when he replies. In any event, knowing the noble and learned Lord and the Secretary of State, it is pretty unlikely that the people about whom all of us would have deep fears and reservations would be appointed to such bodies in the first place.
Viscount Brookeborough: My Lords, I support my noble friend Lord Maginnis and what the noble Lord, Lord Alton, has said about the Safer Merseyside Partnership. I am sure that he is aware, as I am, that the chairperson of that partnership is a member of the Merseyside Police Authority. The chief constable is also a member.
When I come to speak to Amendment No. 91, I shall refer to the question of whether they can be amalgamated to a certain extent or whether they should work together. Because Merseyside is one of the best practice examples in this country, it is absolutely clear that it is not the case that the safety partnerships cannot be linked with DPPs.
Lord Kilclooney: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Alton, is correct. There is a need for the work of the community safety partnerships. What is that work? It is to assist in the reduction of crime and to bring about a reduction in the level of fear of crime to the people in the community and enhance community safety. But some of these things can also be carried out by the district policing partnerships.
People believe that there is now duplication. As the noble Lord, Lord Maginnis, said, there are already far too many quango organisations being created right across Northern Ireland in each district council area. In the council area of Moyle there are only 15,000 voters and yet massive community organisations are being created.
The noble Lord, Lord Dubs, fairly often points out that there is no one here from the SDLP. He very often speaks in a way which presents their case. I can say to the noble Lord that I can speak on behalf of the SDLP today because there is only one party in Northern Ireland which supports the Government as regards community safety partnerships and that is Sinn Fein.
If the Government are up to speed, they will know that yesterday, at a meeting of the policing board, which I attended, the SDLP, the Unionists, the DUP and the independent members which the noble Lord, Lord Maginnis, mentioned, unanimously rejected the idea of the community safety partnerships. What is more, they instructed the chairman of the policing board to contact the Northern Ireland Office immediately and request that a Minister come before the policing board to explain what he is doing. That is the position of the SDLP on this matter.
Lord Williams of Mostyn: My Lords, just to remind ourselves, following on the very helpful intervention of the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, I am now speaking to Amendments Nos. 87ZA, 89A, which was in the original group, also Amendments Nos. 89B, 89C and 90A, which was the response of the noble Lord, Lord Maginnis to the noble Baroness, Lady Farrington. I start with Amendment No. 87ZA.
The noble Lord, Lord Alton, is absolutely right. He quite rightly reminds us that the Northern Ireland executive has launched a comprehensive review of local public administration in Northern Ireland. It may well impact on many statutory organisations, not least the district councils. The noble Lord is further correct in indicating that the only purpose of the clause in the Bill is to allow the Secretary of State flexibility to take account of any changes when he comes to place the CSPs on a statutory footing. There is no more to it than that.
As regards Amendment No. 89A, the chairmanship and administration of the local CSP shall be vested in the local government membership of the CSP, which, I suppose, in a Sinn Fein-controlled district council would inevitably give Sinn Fein the chairmanship and administration. I am not sure that the law of unintended consequences always works quite so ironically. I do not believe that that is what the noble Lord wants.
However, more fundamental than that, I believe that the noble Lord, Lord Alton, who has vast experience, is absolutely right. We do not want to nominate a lead partner. We want a partnership of equals with every one having a degree of moral ownership of the work of the partnership. That deals with the first two amendments.
The next group is Amendments Nos. 89B, 89C and 90A. It will be remembered that in Grand Committee I accepted the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, that the Secretary of State should be required to publish the reports. Therefore, there is no purpose in having the police service of Northern Ireland and other organisations specified in Amendment No 89B receiving the reports directly because I have accepted the proposition of the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, that they be published. The reports will be available in any event.
Amendment No. 89C requires the CSP to have regard to the statutory functions of the DPP. But to echo the approach of the noble Lord, Lord Alton, the CSP will have to have regard to the statutory functions of all its members. Therefore, I respectfully suggest that Amendment No. 89C is inappropriate. Amendment No. 90A defines a district police partnership, and I say nothing further about it.
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