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Lord Dubs: The Government have this part of the Bill just about right. In my experience as head of the Refugee Council for seven or eight years, I found that asylum seekers were highly motivated individuals who picked up English and understood life in this country fairly quickly. Indeed, that was their main aim: to master enough of the language and the culture of this country in order to obtain jobs and make a contribution.
I have one brief story to tell. At that time the Refugee Council ran a young people's home for Ethiopian and Eritrean asylum seekers aged between 13 and 16 or 17 years. They had not been here long when I went to meet them. I sat down and spoke to them and they said, "One of the things the Refugee Council should understand"—these were people who had been in the country only weeks—is that it should select staff for this home who understand the psychological circumstances which gave rise to our coming to this country". That was not bad.
Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville: I rise briefly to commend both the nature of the clause and the debate which has occurred upon it. I have lived in the United States twice. My children when young lived there and were subjected in school to an introduction to citizenship within the United States. It is no bad thing that we are getting round to the same issues, even if it is a little late.
I pay tribute to my noble friends on the Front Bench for their amendment in the context of the spirit of the debate. The noble Earl, Lord Russell, is agreeably disarming about his knowledge of history. Ten days ago I mentioned to him that I had no prior knowledge of the rising against Cromwell in 1655 and he enlightened me at some length, including considerable local detail in Nottinghamshire. He alluded to Canute.
The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, referred to the Vikings. A Reader's Digest atlas, devoted to the United Kingdom, has one page which relates to the colour of hair, which shows a precise correlation to how far the Vikings managed to get. That is an index of the immobility which has occurred in this nation over 1,000 years. The immigration into this country in the second half of the last century has done a great deal to shake up such immobility and to get us moving.I refer to lines 15 to 17 of page 1 of the Bill, to which no amendment in this group refers, but which we shall reach in Amendment No. 5. Other noble Lords have referred to the teaching and learning of English. Before the Bill was debated in the Commons I attended a briefing by a number of the outside relevant bodies. I said how important it is for there to be an improvement in the level of English, for a whole series of reasons in the interests of immigrants, quite apart from those of the economy. A representative from one of the bodies said that that was not the right thing for me to say and that the clause we were discussing on that occasion was harsh. I argued my case again. He said that the trouble was the inadequate provision for the learning of English—to which the noble Lord, Lord Greaves referred—and said that there is great pressure for that to be improved.
I can only say as I said to him, that it is an ill wind which blows nobody any good. However, the pressure to which he referred, for more teaching of English to immigrants, was the first time the issue had been raised with me as a Member of Parliament in a quarter of a century. If the Bill has the effect of increasing pressure for classes to be provided for the learning of English, that will be a major step forward.
3.45 p.m.
Lord Bhatia: As an immigrant of 30 years ago, perhaps I may share with Members of the Committee some of my experiences of English language learning. I do not believe that we should impose conditions which are not at present imposed on the citizens of this country.
Perhaps I may relate an example which I faced 30 years ago when I acquired a business in the City of London. Thirty or 40 people worked in the company, of which I was managing director and chairman. A board of directors came with the company. We agreed that between us we would watch what happened and in one month's time review my role. The company, which had been around for 200 years, was involved in exports and imports, export financing, and so forth.
Four weeks later I met with the board. The first question I was asked was, "What would you like to contribute to what is already going on? What is the added value, as managing director, that you want to bring?" I imposed a condition on the staff of the company, and said, "I should like to see each and every piece of paper which leaves this company; that is, all the correspondence written by 30 people in the company to our clients, both in this country and abroad." I checked such correspondence for about four weeks. I commented to the board that one of the
major things I found unacceptable was that the staff were unable to write good English. Over a period, the company realised that all important documents, important letters to clients or to government departments would have to pass across my desk for the English to be corrected and presented in the correct form.
Lord Filkin: I thank Members of the Committee for the courteous words spoken by both Front Benches, which are appreciated. The opportunity afforded by the amendments to discuss the new requirements relating to knowledge of life in the United Kingdom which the Bill proposes to introduce is useful. I believe most people would agree that it is not unreasonable to impose some requirement. Indeed, combined with the language requirement, there is potential value to the individual and to society if we get it right. I agree that we need to be careful about being over-prescriptive in that regard.
The Government's preference is to emphasise that applicants should have acquired knowledge of life in the United Kingdom, which is likely to be useful and will help them better to integrate. That is four square with the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Carnegy of Lour, and the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, about accessing democracy and rights. However, we want to take expert advice on this and to consult widely on precisely what an applicant should be expected to know and what therefore would need to be covered in courses and in learning material.
The Home Secretary has asked Professor Sir Bernard Crick, who has advised the Government on the development of citizenship education in schools and for 16 to 18-year olds, to chair an advisory group of external people. That group will be asked to advise on the detailed content of a curriculum and how it might be delivered. We shall also want to consult more widely when we have some provisional proposals.
It would be a mistake if the Bill was too prescriptive about the requirement and, perhaps unintentionally, constrained subsequent thinking or the development of thinking over time. I believe, therefore, that it would be better to retain the admittedly broad wording rather than to attempt greater precision in the Bill.
I turn to the individual amendments. I have explained, in relation to Amendment No. 1, why the Government believe that this new requirement is reasonable and potentially useful to the individual and society.
In relation to Amendments Nos. 2, 7 and 9, I understand the concerns of noble Lords that the word "sufficient" is imprecise. I point out, however, that that parallels the existing requirement in paragraph 5(c) of Schedule 1 to the 1981 Act which requires an applicant to have,
- "sufficient knowledge of the English language".
Perhaps more fundamentally, my concern is that if we omit the word "sufficient" it might imply a more onerous requirement than we intend. Clearly, we do not expect applicants to have a comprehensive
knowledge of all aspects of life in the United Kingdom. I do not think that any Member of the Committee could even claim that, as the noble Earl, Lord Russell, has clearly advised us. Including the word "sufficient" recognises that the requirement is comparative: it needs to be sufficient for the purpose of someone seeking naturalisation but no more. Quite what "sufficient" will mean in practice, we think can better be taken forward by seeking the advice of the expert group already mentioned and then by setting that out in the regulations to be laid before Parliament. However, we do not envisage anything onerous. It would be entirely counter-productive to put serious obstacles in the way of people who are keen to become British citizens.Amendment No. 6 would remove the regulation-making power which enables the Home Secretary to determine how the test of sufficient knowledge of life in the United Kingdom can be determined. If, as I hope Members of the Committee agree, the underlying requirement should be retained in the Bill then it clearly makes sense to have some means of testing whether or not it is met. That is the purpose of the regulation-making power.
The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, raised the issue of "one size fits all". That is a good question and a serious one for the advisory group and the Government to consider. People are citizens of the United Kingdom. Therefore, one would expect some commonality. On the other hand, how the Government works, for example, in Scotland and Wales is different. Therefore, those are issues which ought at least to be reflected on without expecting people to have a degree in constitutional law.
It was pointed out that accessing a plumber is difficult. That is a fairly general complaint for anyone who lives in London, irrespective of whether or not one has citizenship, but perhaps that is by the by.
Points were made about arithmetic, geography and history. Those are issues that the advisory group will relate to. But, in a sense, we are not seeking to test whether people have met GCSE standards in five grades or more but whether they have sufficient knowledge to get by in Britain. We shall keep returning to that matter. Clearly, there are issues about illiteracy and handicap which both the advisory group and the Government will be considering carefully.
I take the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Moser, about the tone of the Bill. I think that its tone is right. I also believe that it is right subsequently. No doubt we can debate that issue later.
I have talked about flexibility in respect of numeracy and literacy. The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, raised the issue of knowledge of language. We believe that is relevant because there is clear research evidence that people with some working knowledge of English have significantly increased changes of getting work and employment—if they are of an appropriate age and have an inclination to do so. Therefore, as was signalled by the noble Lord, Lord Brooke, one of the benefits of the Bill may be that, by citizenship
requiring an extension of further teaching of English, a wide range of other benefits may be opened up by increasing literacy.The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, asked whether there will be an adequate supply of courses. By and large we expect colleges of further education to develop courses relevant to the syllabus that is eventually identified. In terms of English language it is crucial that we get an adequate supply in place. We are aware of some of the supply problems and there is a mapping exercise under way to identify those shortfalls.
I turn to Amendment No. 11. It seeks to prohibit the Home Secretary from making a commencement order in relation to this part of the Bill until he has published a draft of the proposed citizenship curriculum. I can assure the Committee that there will be wide consultation on the content and form of the proposed curriculum before we implement this part of the Bill.
In the nature of things, it will take some considerable time to develop curriculum proposals and then to translate them into courses and learning materials. There will be plenty of opportunity for those with an interest to contribute to the process. It does not seem to me, therefore, necessary to include such a provision on the face of the Bill.
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