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Earl Russell: Does the Minister understand that there is no distrust of the Government's willingness to consult; the problem is the tendency of those likely to be consulted to distrust each other?
Lord Filkin: I take the noble Earl's point. One does not expect by consultation necessarily to get a consensus, but it is important that everyone has had an opportunity to express their views. Therefore, the Government are aware of a diversity of views in that respect.
The Earl of Onslow: The noble Lord says that there will be a curriculum and there will be a test. Presumably there will be a pass mark. Let us assume that the test is simple and that the pass mark is 25 per cent. What happens if a young Moser clone appears at the door and—unlike the noble Lord—fails and only gets 24 per cent? Will he be told to go away and take another test? I can see enormous bureaucracy and fun arriving down this route. It will be complicated; it is going to be bureaucratic and difficult. I am sympathetic to what the Government are trying to do, but I do not much like the way that they are doing it.
The Countess of Mar: I follow up a point made by the noble Lord. First, I declare an interest as a member of the Immigration Appeal Tribunal. I apologise for not having been here for Second Reading. That was due to circumstances beyond my control. I also declare an interest as one of the "cock-ups" of colonisation mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Onslow: I was born in Kenya, my father was born in Karachi and my grandfather was born in Simla.
For many years the General Medical Council has required doctors from abroad coming to this country to pass an English test. Is it not the case that now that that has settled down it is not a problem?
Lord Filkin: On the last point, yes, indeed. However, I would caution the Committee against getting unduly apprehensive about this matter at this stage. Admittedly the terms "syllabus" and "pass" may have a dire tone to them, but the intent is to set out requirements about someone getting by and being a successful citizen in Britain rather than proving that they are academic, intellectual or that they have a deep understanding of the constitution.
If Members of the Committee wait to see the outcome of both the consultation process and the ensuing regulations, it should become clear that that is the commitment and the intent. The aim is to help people to become citizens. The course that will be provided will be the mechanism which raises them to the necessary standard and which certifies to the Secretary of State that they have achieved that standard.
Lord Avebury: I am reassured to some extent by what the Minister has said about Amendment No. 11 and the Government's intention to complete the consultations before they introduce this part of the Bill. Will the consultations that Sir Bernard Crick is embarking on with a wide range of organisations be held in public? Will Sir Bernard issue an open invitation to educators and others to come forward with their views so that the process can be seen by members of the public?
Lord Filkin: My Lords, I am almost certain that that is the case—in the absence of any confirmation, I am sure that it should be. Sir Bernard will want to hear the widest range of views, as would only be right in a proper reflective process. That process will take time, and it will take time for the necessary improvements in supply that we have discussed to be put in place.
Turning to Amendments Nos. 3 and 4, as I said, it would not be right to be over-prescriptive at this stage about the content of the curriculum. No doubt, we all have different views about the extent to which a knowledge of the history of the United Kingdom should figure in the curriculum. I should probably be biased in that respect, but I think that such provision would often fail the test of what one needs to get by as a successful citizen. I fear that at present plenty of successful citizens have a poor knowledge of history.
I therefore hope that, in the light of those positive assurances, the noble Lords who tabled the amendments will not press them and will actively participate with others in the consultation process on what we believe to be the positive development of citizenship and our intent to extend it more vigorously to more people in Britain, should they be prepared to take up that invitation.
4 p.m.
Baroness Uddin: My Lords, will my noble friend assure the Committee that the advisory group will
ensure that it contains the broadest of representation, including members who understand the full implications of the cultural, linguistic and other background on which it will be making judgments, with particular reference to the multi-faith, multi-cultural nature of Britain?
Lord Filkin: My Lords, I do not at present know what may be the membership of the advisory group, but I should be extremely surprised if those viewpoints were not adequately represented on it.
Lord Dholakia: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his explanation. I again stress that we ought not to lose sight of the fact that a substantial number of people from the minorities that we are discussing were born in this country as British subjects. They will not be subject to the language requirements, because they are part and parcel of this country. We are therefore talking of a small group of people for whom communication is difficult. None of us disagrees about the need for English: it is right and proper that people should be able to communicate. Although I do not necessarily agree with the noble Countess, Lady Mar, who mentioned tests for doctors, they caused problems in their early days, although they have now been sorted out.
The Bill is likely to be reported in October. Will it be possible between now and October for Sir Bernard Crick to state what he has in mind when we discuss life in Britain? That would give us some guidance on whether to pursue the matter on Report. The point that the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, made is important. Many solutions to problems of language and life in this country are to be found from within the relevant communities themselves. The noble Earl and the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, cited the need for those minorities to be able to make use of available facilities. Until now, there has been no particular process by which to educate people. They have taken the matter into their own hands. The noble Lord, Lord Bhatia, is right.
When I first came to this country, I had a poor knowledge of English. Every time that someone asked me a question, I had literally to translate it into my own language and, like on satellite television, there was a gap before I gave a reply. The problem was that whenever I went to a comedy in a theatre, I always laughed last after everyone else had finished. I think that they thought that I was a bit foolish or that I must have discovered something. The greatest joy in my life occurred one day when I jumped out of the bath and said, "Eureka!" because for the first time in my life I had dreamt in English. I had made it.
Communities themselves have solutions to the problems. There is a serious problem of people who have culturally found it impossible to go to school in their homeland—many elderly people, and so on. They should be part of the process. I hope that we shall be gentle in considering the process. Any further information that the Minister can provide will be useful. We do not want a quick fix. We must bear in mind variation across the country and not simply devise policy on the basis of problems in the North of
England. I hope that before Report the Minister will provide some explanation on the basis of which we can consider what needs to be done. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 2 to 4 not moved.]
Baroness Anelay of St Johns moved Amendment No. 5:
- Page 1, line 17, after "language" insert "or sign language"
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, this is a simple amendment which, I hope, is uncontroversial, but which would assist profoundly deaf people if the Government were to accept it. I thank the Royal National Institute for Deaf People, the British Deaf Association and the Immigration Advisory Service for their helpful briefing on the matter.
The amendment's effect would be to include sign language as a language the sufficient knowledge of which could enable a person to make a successful application for naturalisation. What will be the legal status of sign language under Clause 1? Clause 1(3) enables provision to be made by regulations to determine whether a person has sufficient knowledge about a language before he can successfully apply for naturalisation. We have just had an extensive and sensitive debate on that matter.
Will a person who is deaf or hard of hearing and who uses sign language be catered for in those provisions without discrimination against him/her? If so, how? The RNID and the BDA share my concern about that. The problem is that the working of the clause as drafted appears to be based on the idea that the only languages in existence are spoken languages and that the only indigenous languages in the UK are English, Welsh and Scottish Gaelic.
Will there be facilities for teaching people whose language is not English, Welsh or Scottish Gaelic to learn sign language that is understood in the UK? Will those facilities be sufficient for the number of applicants wanting to use them? I listened with great care to the points made about current facilities for teaching English. The amendment takes us a stage further, because people will need even greater ability if they have to teach sign language as well.
For some deaf people. sign language is their first, or certainly their preferred, language. It is surely beyond dispute that British Sign Language—and, indeed, other forms of sign language—is a language in its own right, with its own vocabulary and syntax. We must also remember that sign languages vary throughout the world in the same way as spoken languages.
Is the Minister aware that the BDA has recently received a number of calls to its helpline asking for advice in cases of deaf people from overseas who are seeking asylum? Do the Government have figures for the number of people who are deaf or hard of hearing who currently seek naturalisation and who use sign language? I listened carefully to what the Minister had to say about the advisory committee to be chaired by
Professor Crick. The Minister referred en passant to illiteracy and handicap as being within the committee's remit. Is the issue of sign language therefore swept up by the committee, or will the Government, as I hope that they will, consider it separately as a language in its own right?
I also follow up the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia. We anticipate that the Bill will be reported in October. Can the Government assure us that any regulations to be proposed to address concerns raised on languages and in general will be available to the House before Report, so that we are able properly to address those matters? I beg to move.
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