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Baroness Anelay of St Johns: I put my name to the amendment and rise briefly to support the points made so ably by my noble friend. It is certainly my practice to listen to my noble friend, who has a finger on the pulse when it comes to detecting points that need to be debated in relation to matters in Scotland.
I certainly do not claim to have a great knowledge of history—certainly none that would match that of the noble Earl, Lord Russell. My days of teaching history were more than a quarter of a century ago. However, even I am aware that it would perhaps be legally correct to refer to Queen Elizabeth II, although I would think twice before doing so in Scotland.
Earl Russell: I believe that the need for the amendment is proved by the fact that it did not occur to me to table it, although this is a subject to which I have given a great deal of thought and on which I have done a considerable amount of professional work. The first reason for the amendment is that the present form of the oath north of the Border is simply and plainly wrong.
I turn to the second reason. Earlier this afternoon we all heard the noble Baroness, Lady Uddin, talk about the fact that we are a multicultural, multi-ethnic, multifaith society. The moment when that hit us was 24th March 1603. The English have put a vast amount of effort into trying to hide from what has happened. It is only now, on the verge of the 400th anniversary, that we are beginning to realise that that is what happened to us—that is, we have not been a sovereign nation state since 24th March 1603. The fact that even I needed reminding of that suggests that we need to pay some attention to this amendment, and I hope that it will be accepted.
Lord Desai: I want to raise one point in relation to the oath. The Justice (Northern Ireland) Bill makes a modification to the oath that judges must take in order to serve as judges in Northern Ireland. We debated the matter. In that oath, the words relating to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II are not used at all. I simply want to point out that there is much flexibility and that we can shape the oath in a variety of ways. In respect of our multicultural, multifaith society, perhaps we should have two or three different versions of the oath and allow people to choose one of them.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: I shall start at the end and thank my noble friend Lord Desai for his very helpful comments. While the parliamentary oath uses the designation "Queen Elizabeth" rather than "Queen
Elizabeth II", we have been unable to find any evidence to suggest that the intent of the designation was to take account of the fact that Queen Elizabeth I of England did not reign over Scotland. Indeed, it appears more probable that the use of this designation, rather than the Queen's official title, is simply the result of a transposition in identical form of "Queen Victoria" in the Promissory Oaths Act 1868.Schedule 5 to the British Nationality Act 1981 uses the style adopted by the Queen under the Royal Titles Act 1953. We see no difficulty in carrying that forward into proposed Schedule 5 to the British Nationality Act 1981 as amended by Schedule 1 to the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Bill. So far as we know, no one who has taken the present oath has ever objected to the formulation "Queen Elizabeth II".
One is always at one's peril when debating with the noble Baroness, Lady Carnegy of Lour, matters relating to Scotland. I recognise that point most emphatically. But we believe that we have this matter right. The issue is, after all, one of British citizenship and it is a reserved matter. The title used by Her Majesty is very much a matter of constitutional law. Indeed, as I indicated, the Bill simply maintains and continues the wording used in the 1981 Act. That Act was made not under our watch but under the watch of noble Lords and noble Baronesses opposite. Therefore, it is a matter which they themselves brought about in the past, and I am reminded of that fact in this debate.
We believe that the wording continues a tradition. It is part of our history and heritage and it is a matter of constitutional law. Obviously, we must be sensitive to issues of concern raised by the new devolved Assembly and the Scottish Parliament. But this is not specifically such an issue. The Bill has obviously been drawn to the attention of the Scottish Parliament. Although we did not specifically draw the attention of the First Minister to this aspect of the oath, we have not received back any comments in regard to this matter.
Of course, we should be sensitive at all times to representations on these matters. So far as we are concerned, there has never been an objection to the current formulation and we see no reason to depart from it.
The noble Baroness, Lady Carnegy of Lour, raised a specific point as regards affirmation. New Section 42(7) as proposed under Schedule 1 applies Sections 5 and 6 of the Oaths Act 1978 which allows for affirmations to be made. I am sure that the important and valuable point raised by the noble Baroness is answered by that provision, and I hope that she will feel able to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Carnegy of Lour: I thank the Minister for that last point. Had there been more time since the point was raised with me by the noble Lord, I should probably have followed that through. I apologise to the Minister for perhaps unnecessarily asking the question.
The rest of the reply given by the Minister is not satisfactory. He simply has not taken my point. I have said all the things which he said. I understood them
before I received the letter from the noble Lord, Lord Filkin, and they were reiterated in that letter. My point is that the Government are unwise to do this.The Minister is right about the oath which we swear here in Parliament. I asked the Clerk of the Parliaments to research the matter, which he kindly did. Following the reign of Queen Victoria, with all successive monarchs the oath has been to George V, Edward VIII and George VI; and so to Elizabeth, without the nomenclature. It is completely by chance that we have such an oath. However, when the row happened in Scotland at the time of the original Act when the Queen's name became Queen Elizabeth II, which it is in law, the Lord President of the Court of Sessions in Scotland wrote to the Clerk of the Parliaments here to ask what was the oath here. It was of interest to him and was taken into account in the exercise. That is interesting; there is a history to the matter.
I simply point to the oath here to show that there is no need for the Government to name the Queen as Queen Elizabeth II in the oath taken by new citizens of this country. They are legally correct. As part of her prerogative the Queen can call herself anything she likes. Her name was decided in the original Act. Everyone—including everyone in Scotland—knows her name. However, it is a matter of sensitivity. I simply warn Government that if an asylum seeker or a new citizen is taking the oath in Scotland and will live in Scotland, there may be trouble in future. Certainly, the name of Her Majesty in an oath should not be a matter of political controversy or a political football.
Nevertheless, the Government should take the matter seriously. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Filkin, will take the matter back to the department and consider my comments. I tabled the amendment with care. It is important that the Government should do this. However, I shall not raise the matter again. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 36 to 50 not moved.]
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Turner of Camden): Before calling Amendment No. 51, I must inform the Committee that if that amendment is agreed to, I cannot call Amendments Nos. 52 and 53.
Viscount Bridgeman moved Amendment No. 51:
- Page 83, leave out lines 7 to 9.
The noble Viscount said: Amendments Nos. 51, 52, 54 and 55 relate to the role of local authorities in the citizenship ceremonies. Paragraph 7 of Schedule 1 enables the Secretary of State to require local authorities to provide facilities and exercise functions in relation to citizenship ceremonies.
In the White Paper Secure Borders, Safe Haven, the Government stated at paragraph 2.21 that:
- "we envisage that ceremonies will be conducted by registration officers in Register Offices and other suitable places. These might include venues associated with community activity such as schools."
Paragraph 7 of the schedule grants broad powers to the Secretary of State in that respect to require local authorities to make arrangements in connection with citizenship ceremonies. Members of the Committee will observe that the power to make regulations does not just allow the regulations to require local authorities to provide facilities, but will allow the Secretary of State to be given the power to direct local authorities to provide facilities and to impose functions on local authorities and registrars.
I hope that the Minister will be able to tell the Committee that the Government have consulted local authorities and registration officers throughout the United Kingdom; that they are content with the proposals and that they do not foresee any problems with them. Obviously, as many applicants for naturalisation may have to come to Britain to work in our towns and cities, there may be a particular burden on local authorities in London and other urban areas in that respect.
Can the Minister also comment on the "other suitable places" at which the Government envisage citizenship ceremonies will be held? Will they include such buildings as town halls, places of worship or venues already approved for the celebration of civil marriage ceremonies? Will the applicant for naturalisation have a choice of venue, or will it be up to the registration officer to decide? I beg to move.
6.15 p.m.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: I am grateful to the noble Viscount for raising the issues through the amendments, which is valuable.
The purpose of paragraph 7 of Schedule 1, which proposes amendments to Section 41 of the British Nationality Act 1981 is to provide for the activities for which the Secretary of State may make regulations in order to enable citizenship ceremonies to take place. Among those activities is the ability to require local authorities to provide specified facilities and to make specified arrangements for citizenship ceremonies.
The Government have tried to make clear that if citizenship ceremonies are to be meaningful and fitting, it is essential that they have an important local dimension so that new citizens can be welcomed into the communities in which they live. Therefore, it is proposed that local authorities and registrars should be responsible for the delivery of this new service in a localised context.
Local authorities already have a key role in the delivery of the services associated with the registration of births, deaths and marriages. The Government decided that they could build on that role by widening it to include citizenship ceremonies. We see that as the continuing development of an issue about which there is well-established policy which has had cross-party agreement. I know that because in another life I was responsible for ensuring that it happened, so I take great delight in this.
In order to ensure that local authorities are able to discharge that new function, it is necessary for the Secretary of State to be able to require them to provide
certain facilities. In particular it will be necessary—I believe it will be essential—for local authorities to provide suitable premises for the conduct of ceremonies; to arrange ceremonies at frequent intervals so that applicants are able to meet the prescribed time limits for attendance; and to determine the suitability for other venues, which is an important part of their current work.The amendments would remove the ability of the Secretary of State to make regulations that would require local authorities to provide specified facilities and to make specified arrangements for citizenship ceremonies. The Government believe that it is entirely appropriate that the Secretary of State should specify such matters in regulations. It is appropriate that a standard is set out and made plain.
I turn to Amendments Nos. 54 and 55. Registration officers can undertake functions only if enabled to do so by primary legislation. Due to the proposed changes in the registration service announced by the Government earlier this year, it was not felt appropriate to include this statutory duty in the registration Acts. As such, the legislation had to be free-standing and will be included in the British Nationality Act.
The proposed changes to the registration service will result in local authorities assuming statutory responsibility for the delivery of face-to-face services including citizenship ceremonies. When that occurs and registration officers become local authority employees, the statutory duty to conduct citizenship ceremonies will be transferred to the local authority.
There has been consultation with the Local Government Association. In general, it is happy with the developments that are taking place. It recognises the importance of the citizenship ceremonies. Local authorities see it as a natural development of their work.
My understanding is that the consultation has been wide and welcome. The registration officers are content with the progress that has been made.
As to the venue of citizenship ceremonies, applicants may have a choice of venues. Of course they need to be prepared to pay any additional costs over and above the standard facilities. It is expected that venues will bedignified and considered suitable by the local authority. They will undoubtedly apply a test.
I think back to the introduction of legislation in this field. When I was the leader of my local authority we had the choice of providing for marriage ceremonies in the Royal Pavilion. I was keen to champion and promote that. Because of the history of that fine building, these are suitable and appropriate premises in which to conduct such citizenship ceremonies. Many local authorities will rattle through their property portfolios to try to come up with something as excellent. It is within that kind of framework that we
see this as a positive and progressive development. I hope that with those explanations the noble Viscount feels able to withdraw his amendment.
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