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Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, I am glad to confirm that we all agree that simplification is desirable. The report is directed not only at the Government but the financial services industry. The review is directed at the Government in respect of taxation but our response will be and can only be in the context of consideration of tax policy in preparation for the pre-Budget report and the Budget itself. As to the recommendation that the Government should avoid introducing new taxed-based saving incentives, many already exist—not just pensions but ISAs, National Savings, premium bonds and so on. If one adds up the incentives available to the average two-adult household in terms of tax-based savings, one finds that many people do not pay tax and that very few people do.
Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Bill
4.25 p.m.
House again in Committee on Clause 14.
Baroness Anelay of St Johns moved Amendment No. 98:
- Page 9, line 8 at end insert—
The noble Baroness said: The amendment's purpose is to put on the face of the Bill the requirement that accommodation centres should not house more than 200 asylum seekers at any one time. I was distressed to
On Second Reading my noble friend Lady Carnegy was right to say that the Government are aiming their policy at a moving target—never more so than in the clauses that establish accommodation centres. The Government say that they hope to trial when the centres are built in three years. Although we welcome the concept of accommodation centres, they could be established in a better way. Our objections relate to the centres' size, location and facilities. Amendment No. 98 deals with the first of those. Size is key to fairer, safer and more rapid processing of claims.
The Immigration Nationality Directorate website states that the Government intend to establish four accommodation centres providing 3,000 places. When speaking to the previous amendment, the Minister said that if the Opposition wants smaller centres, facilities will have to be reconsidered and we cannot have it all ways. There is a mixed message on size. Size does matter and I hope that the Minister will say how much consideration the Government have given to smaller centres as a solution.
In Committee in another place, the then Minister, Angela Eagle, stated that the Government were examining the use of smaller centres to see whether they would work any better. What is the result of that further thinking? It does not seem to have gone far.
As the number of claims is 80,000 a year and rising the four centres will not be able to process many applications. The Refugee Council has expressed its concern at the proposed size of the centres. It says that the Government's current proposals would make the centres too large to be effective. The council states that undoubtedly there will be pressures and tensions in a centre that holds as many 750 or anything like that. Smaller centres in urban areas are less likely to be regarded as skewing local life. The smaller the centre, the less institutional it should feel and more likely it is that managers will be able to create an open regime with a reasonably relaxed atmosphere.
That is vital for single men but also for parents with children. If centres are a sensible size, it is more likely that local authorities will be able to provide all the necessary services, which will make it easier for successful applicants to be integrated into the local community.
The Churches Commission for Racial Justice notes:
The Immigration Advisory Service believes that the experience of reception centres in other European countries such as Denmark and the Netherlands is that
The smaller the number in each centre, surely the more likely it is that the centre will be efficient, humane, decent and safe. Local residents would find smaller centres easier to cope with and understand. It would be better for everyone. I beg to move.
Earl Russell: If I may say so, that was an extremely well-argued, coherent and persuasive case. We on these Benches are also in favour of smaller centres. My honourable friend Mr Hughes thought 250 a reasonable number. We shall not split hairs over the difference between 200 and 250. We are prepared to support the amendment.
What matters is the ability to create a sense of community within a group of people. I have seen in the larger Oxford and Cambridge colleges how people stick in small groups and shut themselves off from the rest. They are frightened of making new acquaintances. The ideal size is somewhere around 220, which just about splits the difference between us.
On the other hand, I take the point made by the Minister about the need to provide interpretation facilities and that being a countervailing pressure. It is possible by skilful selection of people going into centres to square that circle. I would be prepared to co-operate in attempts to do so. Meanwhile, I look for a very much better atmosphere, a very much happier set of people and very much less disturbance than we had in some of the larger places. If one has large numbers of people with nothing to do, as the Minister and the noble Baroness said, one is setting up a prescription for trouble.
We hope that the Government will look with sympathy on the amendment. If the Government want to argue about small differences in numbers or small variations for particular circumstances, we should be less ready to listen to such arguments. Meanwhile, we thank the noble Baroness for a well put case and wish the amendment well. We support it.
Lord Monson: The amendment is excellent so far as it goes. But does it go far enough? If the amendment were passed into law there would surely be nothing to prevent the Government erecting two or more asylum centres, each containing 200 people, no more than 50 yards apart.
Lord Chan: I support the amendment on limiting the size of an accommodation centre in order to meet the
Health problems identified were physical and psychological. Diseases found among asylum seekers and refugees depend on the country of origin. For example, when I was asked to screen Vietnamese refugees in the mid-1980s one in five was a carrier of the hepatitis B virus and 1 per cent had active tuberculosis. The study reported by Drs Burnett and Peel last year and carried out in Blackburn among 1,085 immigrants found 11 cases of tuberculosis—that is 1 per cent. The purpose of screening for tuberculosis among refugees is to treat the disease effectively. The more people in contact with an infected person, the more difficult the treatment programme is to implement.
Asylum seekers from tropical countries, in particular in Africa, are likely to be infected with malaria, a disease normally not managed by a primary care doctor in Britain.
That brings me to my question to the Minister. What arrangements will there be for the health needs of asylum seekers in accommodation centres? Local GPs and their teams could cope with about 200 but a special service, such as used in prisons, may be needed if more people are put in accommodation centres.
Psychological problems among asylum seekers are usually complex. They may have come from countries where they were subjected to threats, assault, rape and torture. The Medical Foundation for the Care of Victims of Torture is particularly concerned about screening survivors of torture and assisting them with psychological support. Accommodation in a large centre will make that more difficult to achieve. I support a centre of no more than 200.
Lord Hylton: I support the principle of much smaller centres than the Government appear to envisage. We have to anticipate that a large proportion of young males in those centres may easily become bored and aggressive, in particular towards other ethnic groups or unaccompanied women and children who will be very vulnerable. Secondly, it would be much easier to fit smaller centres into urban areas where the full range of services is already available.
"( ) An accommodation centre shall not provide accommodation for more than 200 persons."
"While accommodation centres worked well in relation to those needing temporary protection following the Kosovo crisis, the Refugee Council's experience in running such centres suggests that they should not exceed 100 beds. The current proposals envisage groups of 750—often alienated—young men living in one isolated place for extended periods without the right to work . . . Small community-based accommodation would be vastly preferable to large isolated accommodation centres".
4.45 p.m.
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