| Previous Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |
Lord Corbett of Castle Vale: I wonder how any noble Lord can come to any reasonably based conclusion that this or that size of centre is ideal. As the Government have explained, they are contemplating a trial for these centres, having hit on the number of about 750. It is extremely unlikely that in the early years of these centres that maximum number will be maintained for anything like 52 weeks of the year. The Government have also made clear that they are listening to a suggestion from the Refugee Council—there may be others—to undertake these matters in a different way. For example, the distinguished Mr Nick Hardwick has suggested that such arrangements could be made around a cluster of
hotels or hostels so that all the important services required during the assessment of asylum applications can be provided. That is my first point: it is a trial.The figure of 200, or 250 as mentioned by the noble Earl, Lord Russell, is no more than a guess. As a guess, it is no better than the Government's guess of 750. I do not argue that that is a better number for more economical provision of services although that is not unimportant in the spending of public money. None of us wants to be reckless with that. The figure of 200 or 250 is put forward; the Government's preference is 750.
We all share the ambition that the centres should be as decent and humane as possible, providing a calm and supportive atmosphere in which those making asylum applications can be looked after and feel that they are safe, their applications being considered speedily within the necessary process. However, I should like to argue that there is also some strength in having clusters of people. In passing, I should observe that this may be one of the lessons from Sangatte, although I accept that that is a totally different kettle of fish in every other sense; indeed, I believe that it was designed for about 800 but accommodates around 1,200 or 1,300 people. There is some strength in the suggestion that people and families from the same country with the same background should be accommodated together. In that way they will be able to understand each other's origins and give each other support. There will also be powerful arguments during our debate on the education aspects of the Bill in terms of the treatment of very small children.
This consideration also applies to mothers and fathers who come to this country with dependent children. Perhaps Members of the Committee could bear in mind for a moment the backgrounds of many of these asylum seekers. They are not used to either the kind of life that we live in western developed countries, or the range of our way of life. Many of these asylum seekers come from countries such as Iraq, and Iran; and, in the past, they came from Ethiopia and the Sudan. Their countries have little or no development, and there are none of the facilities that we take for granted; for example, our huge urban centres. Furthermore, there is nothing even in the most remotest of the rural areas within these islands that compares with remote rural areas in, say, Afghanistan. There is some strength in the argument for having clusters of people from the same areas with the same backgrounds.
I turn to the services being provided either by the Government, as regards those who are paid to assess the asylum applications, or by the NGOs and other organisations providing advice to asylum seekers. There is a strong argument for those people having detailed in-country knowledge of more than a single sheet of newspaper. I believe that this matter was mentioned yesterday in Committee. We heard of people's experiences regarding civil servants, who are, no doubt, performing an honourable job; but, none the less, getting it wrong because they have no intimate knowledge of the countries from which these applicants have come and are dealing with such
applications on the strength of the papers available. I believe that the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, mentioned this problem. Therefore, in-country knowledge is also an important consideration.The noble Earl, Lord Russell, referred to large numbers of people with nothing to do. I absolutely agree with him. However, we are not talking about a prison life in the sense that many of us object to; for example, too few prison officers and not enough educational opportunities for many in our prisons, which can lead to exceptionally dangerous situations. No, that is not the case here. Alongside all the processes through which asylum seekers pass in order to have their claims properly processed—and, if needs be, the lodging of appeals—the idea of these centres is that facilities will be available for applicants to learn language skills, and so on, as well as familiarising themselves with their new surroundings, so as to prepare them for the future should their applications be successful. Therefore, it is part of the beginning of a process through which these people can begin to acclimatise themselves to the country where they wish to live. Again, in that sense, there is strength in having sufficient numbers of asylum seekers in such centres so as to make viable the provision of those services.
At the end of the day, I do not believe that it is basically an issue of size. It is true to say that the only institution that has attached a great deal of importance to size over the past two centuries is the British Army. The platoon size was based on the number of our Lord's disciples. This is a serious point. The whole of the Army's structure was built upon that foundation. So there is an exceptionally important point in this debate about the number of people who can sensibly be managed in one unit. I do not draw that analogy too far, but I mention it because it is not the size of the establishment; it is the way in which it is managed. It depends upon the skills, the expertise and the training of those who are managing, as well as of the staff who are providing the services that are on offer to those who have been taken into such centres while their asylum applications are being processed.
It is out of this world for anyone to imagine that these accommodation centres will be some kind of huge shed like the one at Sangatte, where people are simply tipped in and have to find a hole in whatever porta-cabin or tent is available. That is not the case. Such accommodation can be managed in discrete units. However, I believe that it would be sensible to group such people in, if you like, "country families", according to their place of origin. Indeed, within the overall accommodation there could be, say, little villages containing groups of people from similar backgrounds. Such an arrangement would make them feel more comfortable and would also make the process of dealing with their applications that much easier.
I am not at all convinced that plucking an alternative number out of the air for such centres is sensible. I make a plea to Members of the Committee that they should respect the Government's judgment and accept this proposition on the basis that it is a trial.
However, if experience shows that it does not work, I hope that my noble friend the Minister will be able to reassure noble Lords that the Government will be first in the queue to say, "We've got this wrong, and want to try it in a different way".
Baroness Carnegy of Lour: The noble Lord has made a very strong argument for the large-number proposition; indeed, there is no questioning that fact. However, before any of this can happen, local communities will have to accept that they will have a centre, or more than one centre, in their midst. The Government have a preference for introducing such units in the countryside.
The noble Lord said that there was no issue as regards size. When the public considers the matter, when planning permission is sought, and when local councils discuss the matter and consult upon it, I believe that the size of such centres will become a very great issue. Asylum seekers will not always stay in the accommodation; indeed, they will be coming and going. They will represent a large influx of people into the community. Therefore, it is unrealistic for the noble Lord to speak in that way because none of these developments can take place unless the local community accepts the position and planning permission is gained.
Although I accept that we need not necessarily have a specific number, the general principle that it should be small seems to be important. I was interested in the point made by the noble Lord on the Cross-Benches regarding the health of asylum seekers. That aspect of the matter had not occurred to me, but it is probably quite an important consideration. From the point of view of the people in these centres, there is no questioning the fact that a smaller number of people would be better. I agree with the suggestion that it is desirable for all of them to come from the same area, because they would be more likely to flourish in those circumstances. But if any noble Lord thinks that it is cosier to be in an asylum centre containing 700 people as opposed to one with 200 people, he is misled.
The Earl of Sandwich: I have grave reservations about the whole concept of accommodation centres. I believe that the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, put the case for the Refugee Council very well, but perhaps not strongly enough. The council would prefer an improved method of dispersal. I listened to the noble Lord, Lord Corbett, talking about "clusters" and group nationalities, which are both very enticing ideas. However, I submit to the noble Lord that the latter are not really compatible with the concept of enormous accommodation centres. I prefer to talk in terms of reception centres.
I hope that the one of the pilots, as indicated by the Home Secretary, will be a very much smaller centre. Perhaps the Minister could confirm that the Refugee Council has already held discussions with the Home Secretary in this respect. I also remember what the Minister said earlier in our debates about languages. Does he agree that smaller centres are more compatible with language training?
5 p.m.
Baroness Uddin: I had not intended to make a contribution to the debate because the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, more than adequately put forward all of our views on the issue. However, my noble friend Lord Corbett made a number of comments that have led me to consider many more questions than would otherwise have been the case. I ask the Committee's indulgence to speak for a couple of minutes.
On a number of issues—education, health, housing, community building and so on—the Government always argue that "small is better". They ask for more precise, more comprehensive services to be provided. The proposal for centres housing around 750 people is somewhat contradictory. I should be interested to hear an explanation from the Minister as to how the idea has arisen that 750 is better than any other number. I do not accept the premise put forward by my noble friend Lord Corbett that the number should be based on military principles. Military principles are essentially about brotherhood. Asylum seekers will represent all kinds of regions, nationalities, languages, countries, cultures, and so on. They would not conform to that kind of brotherhood, so the analogy does not apply.
The noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, is right about the issue of language training. More importantly, we are assuming that, for example, 750 Iraqis will all apply at the same time and will be housed in one centre. I understand from the briefing provided by the Immigration and Nationality Directorate that large numbers of applications come from Europeans. So Iraqis or Iranians might be somewhat isolated in the centres.
It cannot for a moment be suggested that a centre will be a utopia for learning English—one of the ambitions is that those housed at a centre will have access to training courses. I am deeply troubled—indeed, I am delighted that the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, commented on this point—about the fact that women and children will be housed at a place where large numbers of single men will be able to roam free, walk free, sleep free or whatever. There are deep concerns about child welfare and child protection. I should be interested to know how it is intended to ensure that all these people are checked by the police. They will, of course, be living under a large number of checks of all kinds, but how will that happen? So there are concerns about size. More importantly, we need to be assured about the rationale behind the proposed size of the centres. I look forward to the Minister's response.
Next Section
Back to Table of Contents
Lords Hansard Home Page