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Baroness Anelay of St Johns: I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this important debate which sets the scene for our discussions on what asylum seekers can expect to be their lives, first in the centres which the Government are trialling but certainly, if those trials are successful, in accommodation centres which will be applied more generally in years to come. It is right that noble Lords pay such care and attention to the details of the debate.

I shall turn last but not least to the two noble Lords who disagreed with me: the noble Lord, Lord Corbett, and the Minister. I am grateful to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Oxford for keeping an open mind on this matter. I appreciate the way in which he approached the debate and his concern that in talking about numbers we should not be distracted from the important questions of resources and management. Indeed, those two issues have underpinned the whole way in which I intended to approach the debate.

I note that, like the Refugee Council, the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, considers my amendment second best. I appreciate that others would prefer to see no accommodation centres. However, we on these Benches have made clear that as a matter of principle and practice we believe that they could be a way forward if the trials prove successful.

I shall not refer in detail to the contributions of each and every noble Lord. That has been covered well by the Minister. Indeed, some points made were so important in detail that it would be unwise for me to try to summarise them briefly at this stage. However, some vital points were made as regards the needs of those who will be in the centres. I took careful note of the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Chan. In a matter as important as TB screening, one has to take account of health needs which may not be commonly seen by local GPs or hospitals. Sensitive expertise is needed in dealing with health screening. I listened carefully to the comments made by the noble

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Baroness, Lady Kennedy of The Shaws, because of her wide experience both within and outwith this Chamber in learning about the needs of families, mothers and children, who could well be at risk in such environments.

The Minister tried to respond well to the attacks made on government policy. However, I refer him to the statement made by my noble friend Lord Brooke, who encapsulated the whole problem. He challenged the Government to come up with quantitative evidence with regard to the economic and social advantages of the model the Government are determined to have in this trial. Despite all the helpful information given by the Government, they have shown that they do not have that quantitative evidence to go ahead with the experiment at a size of 750. I have been reminded by the Refugee Council in response to the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Corbett, that its concern about the size of centres is based on experience of running reception centres for asylum seekers in recent years. Such experience shows that smaller, community-based centres are much more likely to be successful. I have to reflect upon the experience of those who have already done, as opposed to those of us in politics who are trying to create for the future.

The whole point of a trial is that we must get it right. We are talking of the future of human beings—not of trying to tick a box stating that we are successful in a management scheme—and of people who have been harassed from shore to shore, who come here with hope for a future. We must get the plans right for them and right for this country. They deserve nothing less.

I listened carefully to what the Minister said. This matter is too important for me to plough ahead and test the opinion of the Chamber tonight. I am grateful to the Minister for telling us that next week he is to meet with the Refugee Council with the thought of looking at different models. My disappointment is that I do not want to see those models waiting until 2003–04. I want to see them in position now alongside these larger centres.

So, yes, the Minister has given us much food for thought, but I am greedy on behalf of people whom we want to see in this country. Although I shall in a moment beg leave to withdraw the amendment, I am sure that on another occasion on Report I shall bring the matter back in order to take it further.

I ought at this stage to say to Members of the Committee that the amendment ranged more widely than I had anticipated or intended. Noble Lords have very properly in the course of the debate covered the issues that I intended to raise by my next amendment. Amendment No. 99 deals with the matter of facilities which might be provided. Therefore, I think that it would be proper for me not to move that amendment when it is called so that we can continue on to Amendment No. 100. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

[Amendment No. 99 not moved.]

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Baroness Anelay of St Johns moved Amendment No. 100:

Page 9, line 8, at end insert—

"( ) Prior to providing an accommodation centre, the Secretary of State shall consult with the relevant local authorities, health authorities and police authorities."

The noble Baroness said: Amendment No. 100 is slightly different. The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, earlier took me to task and asked why we had not grouped these amendments together. There was a method in my—not quite, I hope—madness. On this occasion I am looking at the planning process. The noble Countess, Lady Mar, raised a nugget of this in our last debate.

Amendment No. 100 is a probing amendment. It asks the Minister to clarify the rules that will govern the siting of the new accommodation centres, in particular, the guidelines for the construction of new centres in rural areas where public services are already overstretched.

I note that in a Written Answer in another place the Minister, Beverley Hughes, stated:

"We expect the first trial accommodation to open during 2003".—[Official Report, Commons, 8/7/02; col. WA 736.]

Will the passage of the Planning Reform Bill, which is widely expected in your Lordships' House next Session, have any impact upon the rules to be followed? One assumes that the Government must have a good idea of the impact of that Bill because it has become clear from reports in the press and debates in the Chamber that the Government intend to leap straight from the Green Paper—recently debated in this Chamber—into legislation.

Therefore, this is a matter where policy, one assumes, is fairly well advanced. It is not just a matter of concern as to which sites will be chosen but what kind of buildings will be erected on the site. The Minister has adduced some evidence as to wanting some flexibility about how those sites might be planned. I welcome his offer of giving noble Lords some sight of the Government's ideas on the matter.

At the moment the Government propose to use Crown land. One supposes that it is easy for them to get at. Can the Minister explain the ramifications of the processes of planning circular 18/84 which allows both fast and slower track processes for the local authority? The Minister in another place stated:

"We are considering using the slower track rather than fast. We want as much support and engagement for the matter as we can muster among local authorities and those involved in areas where accommodation centres are being sought".—[Official Report, Commons Standing Committee E, 7/5/02; col. 77.]

That reassurance is undermined by the Government's publicly stated intent to appeal if their first applications for centres are turned down. That makes it look as though they are determined to go ahead with the sites already identified, whatever local views may be.

I have been invited to visit one of the potential sites in Bicester this summer. My honourable friend Mr Baldry has arranged the visit so that I can meet some of the local people and the organisations to learn their views.

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Last week I received a letter from the Bicester Action Group. It acts on behalf of the people of Bicester and the surrounding villages, including Piddington, Arncott, Ambroseden and Blackthorn, which are the four villages most affected. Is the Minister aware that it expresses its dismay at the Government's proposals for an accommodation centre at the MoD site in Bicester? It says that it is difficult to see how a new mini-township of 750 people plus staff could possibly be unobtrusive. It points out that the population of the two closest villages—Piddington and Arncott—is less than the total which the accommodation centre is likely to accommodate.

Those villages have only three shops and two public houses between them. Piddington does not have a shop or a Post Office and only one bus to Oxford each day. Bicester does not have the facilities for its local inhabitants. It has no cinema or recreational opportunities. It cannot offer proper facilities for the needs of a large number of residents in the accommodation centre. The Bicester Action Group states that it is at a loss to understand why the Government have chosen to ignore the advice of the relevant refugee support groups, which are highly critical of these large centres in rural areas. So am I. I beg to move.

6.15 p.m.

Lord Renton: I support my noble friend on the amendment. This is the first time that I have spoken on the Bill. Therefore, perhaps I should disclose that many years ago while I was a Home Office Minister I was, for four-and-a-half years, responsible for immigration and asylum.

There were scarcely any asylum seekers then, but we had thousands of immigrants who were entitled to come here from the Commonwealth. Their numbers and the problems they created were so great—housing, accommodation, the education of their children and one thing and another—that we had to do something about the situation. So we persuaded Parliament to pass the Commonwealth Immigrants Act 1962. That reduced the problems; it did not solve them.

Now we have a similar problem on a similar scale. I feel sorry for the Government in having to deal with it. I think that we are right to give the Government all the support they need in dealing effectively with the problem.

Having used those general words I turn to Amendment No. 101, which has just been moved by my noble friend. I support it. But of course it overlaps with Amendment No. 126, which is grouped with it, and which is to be moved by the noble Lord, Lord Filkin.

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