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Earl Russell: If the noble Lord will forgive me, we are on Amendment No. 100. Amendment No. 101 comes next.
Lord Renton: I apologise to Members of the Committee. I thought that I heard that it was not going to be moved.
A noble Lord: No, that was Amendment No. 99.
Lord Renton: Having heard that, perhaps I may speak to Amendment No. 100, which I very much
wished to speak to. The preliminary remarks that I have made apply just as much, perhaps even more, to Amendment No. 100. Perhaps I may say how grateful I am to the noble Earl, Lord Russell.Amendment No. 100 states that,
- "the Secretary of State shall consult with the relevant local authorities."
Earl Russell: I am no believer in gilding of lilies and I am mindful of the Committee's time, so I shall say only that we, on these Benches, support the amendment.
Lord Hylton: I also support the amendment. Consultation on the setting up of the accommodation centres must clearly be an important part of the whole process in order for them to work satisfactorily.
However, I would go beyond that. When we discussed Amendment No. 98, the noble Lord, Lord Filkin, said that a successful application would mean that the person or family would immediately move out of the centre to somewhere else. I want the Government to consult on where that "somewhere else" will be. In the case of rural accommodation centres, it will almost certainly be an urban area, so the move may be over a considerable distance. That will require forethought. I hope that the Government will accept at least the spirit of the amendment.
Lord Chan: I, too, support the amendment. It is important that the relevant authorities are consulted. Perhaps I may cite the experience of Liverpool, as I live just south of the river there. We regularly see asylum seekers. There has not been proper consultation, especially about asylum seekers accommodated by private landlords. As a result, unnecessary trauma and rejection of asylum seekers by local people has been caused.
The other important issue is that of children and families. I am especially concerned for the welfare of children because of the harm that can be done to the psyche of a child if it is rejected and abused in public by people who mistake it as unwelcome. Whatever we do, we must remember that the welfare of children is paramount. That will happen only if the relevant authorities are consulted.
I presume that not only the authorities but the voluntary sector would be included in that consultation. In my experience with Vietnamese refugees, the most important source of goodwill was the voluntary sector—the Churches, Rotary Clubs, and other friends and neighbours. As a result, people were willing to have other people living next door to them in the community. That is an important way to ensure that people are not left in ghettos. Even though
they are being assessed, it is important in the present situation that they realise they can live at peace with those around them and that local people can treat them as friendly people to whom they can some day look up and with whom they can live.
Lord Avebury: I should like to pursue the question of the voluntary sector raised by the noble Lord, Lord Chan, and to highlight one aspect of it: the provision of religious facilities for people in accommodation centres. There is only one sentence in the documents about such provision. In reply to the previous debate, the Minister said that there would be a chapel, a Muslim prayer room and a space for multi-faith religious observance. I suggest that Minister consults about that with the leaders of the various faiths.
In the past, failure to consult in the case of private prisons led to disaster. I speak in particular of Dovegate and Rye Hill prisons where, because there was no consultation with the religious authorities, the space provided was grossly inadequate. It was nothing like as good as previously afforded to religious minorities. In the case of accommodation centres, it will be even more important to cater for such variability in the population. At one time there may be a large influx of people from a place such as Kosovo where people are primarily Muslim; at another, they may come from a country such as Sierra Leone, a mixture of Christian and Muslim; or from China, where a large proportion are Buddhist. Accommodation centres must attain a maximum degree of flexibility. I am not sure that that is reflected in the Government's thinking. The Minister kindly offered to display the architectural plans, which, I understood him to say, have already been finalised without any of the consultation for which we are asking.
I appeal to the Minister to reconsider and not only to consult the authorities mentioned in the amendment but to think carefully about how religious facilities are to be provided in those centres. We must ensure that they provide the maximum flexibility to cater for the population concerned.
The Countess of Mar: The noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, asked that local authorities, health authorities and police authorities be consulted. The suppliers of public utilities such as water and drainage, telecommunications, electricity and public transport should also be consulted. To consider Throckmorton again, the lanes to it from the main thoroughfares are narrow. The roads would have to be altered. Unemployment in not rife in Worcestershire; we are well provided for with employment. Where will the staff of the centre come from? Where will they be accommodated? What sort of transport will be provided for them to reach the establishment. All those issues need to be considered.
The noble Baroness mentioned public libraries and cinemas. People need places of entertainment. People from Throckmorton, for example, would have to go to Pershore, Evesham or Worcester, all of which are
some distance from the village. How will those facilities be provided for them? They cannot be thrown together in a year, or even in 18 months, they must be planned for over a long period. Health services, in particular, must be planned for over a long period. Especially if we are considering a number of 750 rather than 200, I ask the Minister to reconsider the timescale.
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: As I understand it, my noble friend's amendment applies to the establishment of the centres and requires consultation before the provision of the centre is begun. Can the Minister confirm that any application for such a centre will require normal planning permission? If so, will it not be necessary for him to consult the local authority in advance and will not all the matters that my noble friend mentioned and the many others mentioned during the debate be relevant to the planning inquiry that will follow that application?
Baroness Uddin: I, too, support the principle behind the amendment, especially in relation to the local authority, police authorities and those concerned with the welfare and protection of children. They must not just be consulted on planning permission. Whether people are contained in an accommodation centre or in a family unit, times will inevitably arise when services will be required from outside. Local authorities, health authorities and police authorities, alongside others, will need to ensure that protocols and procedures are in place to incorporate services for women and children. I also concur entirely with what the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, said about consulting religious and faith leaders. Given that it is a pilot scheme, it will stand us in good stead if we get it right.
My noble friend Lady Kennedy of The Shaws spoke about services for, in particular, women and children caught up in domestic violence. It is important that police procedures be amended to include services for women. Can the Minister assure us that women who require women-only provision, such as women GPs or women-only leisure facilities, will also be considered in this context? Local authorities already make women-only provision, and health authorities make women-only provision for female patients and female customers or service users. It is important that such things are taken on board in the provision of services at accommodation centres.
6.30 p.m.
Lord Clinton-Davis: I have not had the opportunity to participate in our debate this afternoon until now. My noble friend the Minister wants the proposed accommodation centres to work. It is as simple as that. It follows from that that there will be proper consultation with everybody who is affected by the proposition.
With great respect to the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay of St Johns, I do not think that she has defined adequately the people whom my noble friend the Minister and his colleagues will consult. There are many more people whom he will be inclined to consult
about the importance of the situation of the accommodation centres. If planning permission is required, everybody mentioned in the amendment will be entitled to be heard. That being the case, it is important that we should not divide on the issue tonight. My noble friend should have the opportunity to consider whom he will consult and whether it is necessary for this proposition—or something like it—to be included in the Bill. At present, I am far from satisfied that it is; I will have to be convinced about that.
It is accepted that the widest possible consultation will be undertaken. I have not heard anything that confutes that proposition.
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