| Previous Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |
Lord Judd: Does my noble friend Lord Clinton-Davis agree that wide consultation is not just a matter of bringing in the relevant experts and authorities? There is the whole matter of community dynamics. If a centre is not to be a threat to a local community, there must be responsible and positive attitudes towards the centre in the community. The amount of time that the department puts into preparing the ground is central, in a positive sense, to the success of the operation.
My noble friend the Minister has continually emphasised the fact that he wants the centres to be models of humane policy. I believe him. However, if that is to be the case, there must be a positive social dynamic, and there must be full consultation. If he can assure us that that will be a firm part of government policy, the amendment will be unnecessary.
Lord Clinton-Davis: I cannot remember an occasion on which I failed to agree with my noble friend Lord Judd. I share his view. However, the point that he made cannot be adequately recorded in the Bill.
Lord Greaves: At the risk of incurring the wrath of my noble friend Lord Russell, I shall make two or three additional points that have not yet been made. The noble Lord, Lord Judd, has just said some of the things that I was going to say but said them rather more eloquently than I would have done.
The Minister said that he had some plans that he would like to show us. Like other noble Lords, I would be glad to see them. If there is a plan for the site at Throckmorton, for example, and the other sites, planning for the sites must be at a rather more advanced stage than application for an outline planning decision on principle as to whether it would be sensible to have an accommodation centre at a particular site. Sensible developers often apply for outline permission before they go to the trouble of drawing up expensive detailed plans. Can the Minister clarify the position for us?
In February, I believe, the Home Secretary promised full consultation on all the sites with a range of different bodies, including local communities. What consultation with local communities has taken place so far? Some of the sites have been public knowledge for a considerable time. What consultation with local
communities is proposed? By local communities, I mean parish councils and local residents, not just local authorities. Will the Minister tell us about that?The Minister rightly said that 44,000 people had been dispersed to NASS accommodation in the community. Over half of those people live in the three regions of the North of England. I have no complaints about that. Because the Minister happens to have sent some of them to the little textiles town—as it once was—of Nelson, my life has been enriched by my getting to know some extraordinary people, discovering their history and helping some of them to settle in this country. That is fine. If the Minister wants to send more to Nelson, many of us would be delighted. However, Nelson is a town of 28,000 people. If the Minister suddenly decided to send 50,000 people—all the dispersed people—to Nelson, I would complain. That is the difference: it is a matter of scale.
The Minister asked whether it was a bad thing to send 3,000 people to the rest of Britain. He is not sending 3,000 to the rest of Britain; he is sending 750 to four specific places. That is why the planning application and the consultation are so important.
I have read the Hansard reports of the debates in another place. Several Members of Parliament—mainly Conservatives—expressed some concerns. Members of the Government accused them, in no uncertain terms, of Nimbyism. Nimbyism is often not a generous or attractive thing, but the fact that someone lives in a particular place does not mean that they do not know about that place and cannot put forward perfectly good arguments about the effect that things will have on it. The people who are called Nimbys, just because they happen to live in a particular place, are not necessarily wrong. They are not necessarily right either. They have the same right to put forward their views and arguments as everybody else, and they have more motivation to do so because they live there. The instant and rather shallow accusation of Nimbyism is often a cover for not being able to answer the arguments. I am not suggesting that the Minister has done that today—clearly he has not—and that is to his credit.
Finally, in such developments the law of unintended consequences must be considered. Two examples of the problems caused in the area were given to us when we visited Sangatte and met the mayors of Sangatte and other local villages. Some members of the group laughed at them and thought, "Here are parish politicians, local peasants, introducing irrelevancies". Some of us who have a history of grass-roots political activity thought that what we were being told was really quite exciting.
First, we were told about local bus services. From the rural areas there was not a good bus service into Calais and other centres. Fifty residents of the Sangatte centre suddenly turned up at a bus stop and boarded a local bus. People who used the bus service to take their children to school or to go shopping suddenly found that they could not do so because it was full of young men from Iran, Afghanistan and so
forth. That is innocuous in itself but needs to be taken into account when putting a big institution in the countryside.Secondly, we were told that many people there who come from Afghanistan or Kurdistan were used to countryside in which they had what the noble Lord, Lord Judd, and I know as "the right to roam". That was mentioned in the Countryside and Rights of Way Act. It is open pastoral country and people walk anywhere without complaint from anyone. Therefore, when those people wanted to walk from the Sangatte centre into Calais or to the rail terminal, they merely walked across the fields as though they were at home. It has therefore been necessary for them to undergo an education process; that in the enclosed farmland of the Calais area it is not done and people stick to footpaths.
I then wondered what recreational facilities people will have in the areas we are considering. Jokingly, I thought that the Home Office should perhaps fund the local county council to have a rights of way improvement programme in the areas surrounding the accommodation centres because walking in the countryside will be about all they can do. I then thought that perhaps that was not such a daft idea because if people want to walk from A to B, footpaths and roads must be provided, as the noble Countess, Lady Mar, pointed out.
Those small changes will make all the difference in ensuring, as the noble Lord, Lord Judd, said, that if the accommodation centres are built, they fit into the local communities. They will bear on whether the centres cause all kinds of difficulties and problems which people have not considered or planned for in advance because they seem trivial.
Baroness Carnegy of Lour: When the planning application goes forward, all these points will arise. I believe that the Government will not have an easy time obtaining planning permission.
The Lord Bishop of Hereford: The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, talked about consultation on the provision of spiritual care for those who live in the accommodation centres. It is an important matter. I speak not from personal experience but from that of episcopal colleagues. For example, at Yarl's Wood a slightly different kind of accommodation has been provided. The Church of England worked extremely hard to provide good chaplaincy care. However, we are talking about a wide range of spiritual care for people from all over the world.
In my previous post, I had responsibility for West Dorset where there were three penal institutions: a young offenders' institution; a local prison; and a high security prison on Portland. Most of the prisoners had been picked up for drug trafficking offences at ports and airports. They came from all over the world. It was a cosmopolitan population. My conversations with the chaplains there centred on how extremely difficult it was to make adequate provision for the spiritual care of members of the Jewish, Muslim, Sikh and Hindu
faiths. Those who cared for them came only infrequently and sometimes had to travel long distances.The proper care of those who will live in accommodation centres is highly relevant. It is yet another reason why we should not place large groupings of such people in rural areas where that provision will be difficult.
6.45 p.m.
Lord Filkin: The amendment is designed to ensure that accommodation centres can be established only where the Secretary of State is satisfied that consultation has taken place with the relevant local authorities, health authorities and police authorities.
I want to reassure the Committee that we understand the need to engage with relevant bodies in assessing the suitability of the location of accommodation centres and the adequacy of the facilities on site. We are committed to making the accommodation centres work. The Home Office recognises that it does not have a monopoly on expertise. We need the input of others. We want to work closely with others; to harness their experience so that the accommodation centres cater for the needs of residents; to minimise any adverse impact on local services; and to provide the necessary assurances to the local community.
We are meeting local authorities in the areas where we have decided to submit planning notifications; that is, in Bicester, Newton and Throckmorton. We will do so in respect of any other sites where planning notifications will be made. We have arranged regular meetings with the Department of Health to take forward healthcare issues. It is using its knowledge and experience and has involved the primary care trusts in the areas concerned.
With the police, security is obviously of major importance. Asylum seekers in the centres need to feel safe and members of the local community also want reassurance. Let me stress that there is no evidence that asylum seekers are more prone to committing crimes, but of course I understand the concerns that any community will have when a new establishment is created nearby. Again, we are meeting police forces in the relevant areas and that will be part of a continuing dialogue.
I do not want to pre-empt discussions on later amendments, but our creation of a monitor for accommodation centres makes clear that we expect the monitor to consult appropriate bodies. That reflects the fact that we will be working closely with bodies such as the police and we want the monitor to be looking at how we have done that.
We are intending to provide a wide range of services and facilities on site, including education, healthcare, purposeful activities and access to legal advice. The aim has been to minimise the impact on local services and aid the creation of self-contained communities within the centres. But, clearly, where further facilities are necessary—and secondary healthcare which cannot be provided on site is a good example—we
want to ensure that, through discussions with the relevant bodies, we take full account of these in deciding on the site's location.Let me also stress that we are committed to full consultation on the proposed accommodation centre sites. Exhibitions took place in the Bicester area on 10th and 11th June and more than 300 people attended. Exhibitions in respect of the RAF Newton site were held in the Nottingham area on 18th and 19th June and more than 800 people attended. Beverley Hughes has also visited Bicester and Newton and met local representatives and we will do the same in the other places in due course. We have not yet finalised proposals for the Throckmorton area.
In reply to the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, we have not used the fast-track process, known as "special urgency procedures", following representations from local people. We want to engage fully with local people. Clearly, if there were to be an adverse planning consideration by the local authority, it would be open to the Government to lodge an appeal if they thought that appropriate.
Furthermore, planning notification for Throckmorton is still in preparation, although we have submitted it for Bicester and Newton. We understand that two notifications are being considered by the planning authorities this week. If planning is refused, we will consider the basis of the rejection and reflect on it. After proper consideration, we may decide to appeal. If we appeal, we will send the papers to the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister and the DPM will decide what to do in that respect under his planning responsibilities. In such a circumstance, it is likely that a public inquiry will be arranged. The planning inspectorate within the ODPM will appoint an inspector and manage the public inquiry process and the inspector will then make a recommendation to the DPM. There will be no attempt to override normal processes. The opening date of 2003 is entirely conditional upon the planning process. We do not yet know the position in respect of notifications. As to a planning reform Bill, planning applications for trial centres will be made under existing legislation. The noble Lord, Lord Renton, asked whether parish councils are being consulted. They are, as part of the planning process. Officials have visited the accommodation centre locations at Bicester and Newton.
The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, raised the important issue of religious observance. The Bill provides for the Secretary of State to arrange facilities under Clause 26(1)(h). They will include appropriate washing facilities, quiet association rooms and small prayer rooms—and there will be a manager of religious affairs at each site.
Next Section
Back to Table of Contents
Lords Hansard Home Page