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Lord Avebury: Yesterday, the Minister said that a generic model for how facilities at accommodation centres would operate already existed. Presumably, those facilities include premises for the use of the legal advisers who will serve the inhabitants of the centre. Can the Minister give us an idea of the scale of the facilities envisaged?
We might take Oakington for comparison. I understand that the Refugee Legal Centre and the Immigration Advisory Service have separate office blocks containing rooms used by legal advisors as interview rooms and so on. Space of, roughly, 30,000 square feet is available to each agency in which to serve the residents at Oakington. There will be more people in the accommodation centres, so I take it that, in the generic model that the Minister said we could see, there are two blocks—one for the RLC and one for the IAS. What sort of square footage will they occupy?
Lord Kingsland: We have two difficulties with Amendment No. 121A. The first was eloquently explained by the noble Earl, Lord Russell. The second is connected with the expression "provision of facilities".
Amendment No. 121A arranges for,
- "the provision of facilities . . . for the use of a person in providing legal advice to a resident of the centre".
Lord Clinton-Davis: What happens if a rather abstruse point of law—beyond the competence of the person at the accommodation centre—arises and it becomes necessary to go to see a barrister in chambers? It may not be practicable for the barrister to come to the accommodation centre.
Lord Kingsland: It may, ultimately, be desirable for the asylum seeker to go to the barrister's chambers, but he is likely to do so only after the advice offered in an initial consultation with his solicitor. So, in order to recognise that he needs expert legal advice, the asylum seeker must have general legal advice first. The Government should guarantee that such general legal advice is available on site. That is the purpose of Amendment No. 118.
I accept that our amendment does not provide for the further step. It may be necessary on Report to refine the amendment, so that we can approach the problem in two stages. Stage one is the on-site advice, and stage two concerns the legal consequences that flow from that advice.
Lord Clinton-Davis: Does the noble Lord agree with the proposition that the second stage should be included in the Bill? In other words, it may be necessary, in certain circumstances that he has defined, for the asylum seeker to go to the chambers of someone who specialises in this area of the law.
Lord Hylton: It would be helpful if the kind of provisions that the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis, rightly wants were enlarged to cover not only residents of accommodation centres but asylum seekers in general.
Lord Kingsland: May I suggest that between Committee and Report stages, we might put our heads together and consider the possible elaboration of Amendment No. 118 in the unlikely event that the Minister does not concede both points?
Perhaps I could elaborate on the approach that we have adopted under Amendment No. 118. We entirely accept and appreciate that the Government did move in the direction suggested by the Opposition in another place. We appreciate the steps that they have taken so far. At col. 171 of the Official Report of the Standing Committee in another place, it was argued that there was no reference to "legal services" in the Bill. It is the Legal Services Commission rather than the Home Office that provides such services, and which is already empowered under existing statutory provisions to
provide services to asylum seekers. I understand that that is the main reason why the Government have resisted including the matter in the Bill.The noble Lord the Minister is neither nodding nor shaking his head, so I await his response with interest. We believe that it is vital to recognise that the accommodation centres will become a one-stop shop for asylum applications. I welcome Amendment No. 121, which reflects the concerns expressed both here and in another place. In the Standing Committee in another place, the Minister said that legal services would be freely available in accommodation centres as required.
However, I must press the Minister for an explanation as to why it cannot be specified in the Bill that legal advice should be provided in those centres. That is what the Government have said they intend to happen, so why not make it plain?
Lord Renton: I apologise for not having been present when this group of amendments was first discussed. I have been here for some time now and have heard valuable proposals. I support the proposition that between now and Report stage, the Front Benches and others if they feel like it, should consult to find a suitable method of achieving legal representation in the way in which the various amendments suggest. They all have a different emphasis, which is unfortunate in a way, but it is leading us in the right direction. I think that it would be a good thing if we did not press the issue tonight. It would be valuable if the Minister when replying says that he would be willing to have discussions about the best way of embracing the motives of the various amendments. I very often agree with the noble Earl, Lord Russell, and I agree that there should be access to legal advice. However, to introduce the word "competent" creates a bit of a problem.
8.45 p.m.
Lord Filkin: I shall make no comment on that.
I shall give the Government's position on these issues, but I am happy to have further discussions without commitment if that would be useful. First, I shall set out why we cannot accept Opposition Amendments Nos. 117 to 119, which deal with legal advice, and why we hope that the Committee will accept Government Amendment No. 121A.
I understand concerns that asylum seekers in accommodation centres will not be able to have access to free, independent legal advice. People are worried that we will say, "There is advice in that town 20 miles away. It is available to you. Off you go and get it", and that accommodation centre residents will not be able to afford to do that, or will not be able to reach the town and remain within their reporting and residence restrictions. Effectively asylum seekers will be denied legal advice. They are worried that there will be insufficient legal advisers available to provide advice for all centre residents.
We do not believe that that is so. We are committed to ensuring that all asylum seekers have access to legal advice if they want it at all stages of the asylum process.
That applies equally to accommodation centre residents. We will ensure that there are sufficient advisers available for accommodation centre residents to receive that advice.The advice will be provided and funded by the Legal Services Commission through on-site provision, local supply or a combination of both. The precise arrangements will depend on the location of each accommodation centre. The Legal Services Commission will enter into specific contracts with quality assured suppliers. That is being planned centrally by the Commission, which has been involved in discussions with the Home Office on this issue over several months.
The Committee is aware that the Legal Services Commission is already under a duty to facilitate the provision of legal advice and representation by virtue of Section 4 of the Access to Justice Act 1999. Furthermore, the Commission is under a duty, within the resources available and the priorities set by the Lord Chancellor, to ensure that individuals have access to services that effectively meet their needs. Issues involving life or liberty, including asylum, are given top priority for funding in accordance with the Lord Chancellor's direction on priorities issued under Section 6(1) of the Access to Justice Act and are also prioritised under the funding code issued under Section 8 of that Act and approved by Parliament.
Therefore, there is already an obligation on the Legal Services Commission to provide advice for asylum seekers. To meet concerns that such advice may be available but inaccessible, Government Amendment No. 121A provides a power for the Home Office to provide facilities for accommodation centre residents to receive legal advice. We are taking this power to make clear the Home Office's express intention to facilitate the provision of legal advice at accommodation centres. Noble Lords may ask why our amendment does not insert a reference to legal advice facilities in Clause 26(1). That is a legal technicality. Clause 26(1) deals with facilities that we will provide to residents and effectively gives the Home Office a power to fund those facilities. We are not taking a power to fund legal advice because, as we have explained, a power already rests with the Lord Chancellor and he has taken on responsibility for the provision of advice.
Therefore, the government amendment provides a power for the Home Office to fund facilities only. It would not be appropriate for us to take a power to fund that which we did not intend to use. A further reason for not creating a duplicate power to fund in Clause 26 is that there is a power in Clause 97, which means that it will be open for the Home Office to grant fund voluntary organisations to provide advice to those in accommodation centres with a right of appeal.
Noble Lords may ask why the Government cannot accept Amendment 117, which is a power to provide,
- "access to competent legal advice".
The Legal Services Commission is obliged to meet local needs and will do so by providing legal advice to asylum seekers in accommodation centres at all stages of the asylum process. It is committed to ensuring that that is done either by legal advisers based permanently on site or by means of visiting local advisers. The Home Office is committed to facilitating that by ensuring that all necessary facilities are made available.
We cannot accept Amendment No. 119 as it is unnecessary and duplicates existing provision. It will be unnecessary for us to fund accommodation centre residents' expenses for travelling to see their lawyer because legal advice will be provided on site. In the event that an asylum seeker needs to make an exceptional journey to see a legal adviser because the local supplier cannot visit the centre, as may happen from time to time, the Legal Services Commission can provide help with the costs of that travel. Under the terms of legal aid, the solicitor or other adviser who is handling the case can obtain reimbursement for the cost of an asylum seeker's travel to the legal adviser for the purpose of instructing the adviser. That assistance would of course be subject to the asylum seeker qualifying for legal aid in the usual way.
This approach is consistent with that currently taken by NASS, where NASS is expressly prohibited by Section 96(1)(c)—
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