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Lord Lloyd of Berwick: My Lords, I thank noble Lords on the Conservative and Liberal Democrat Front Benches for their support. As to the noble Viscount's first question concerning offences committed abroad, it seems to me that that illustrates very well the type of difficulties which will occur over and over again when Part 5 of the Bill is put into practice. As the noble and learned Lord the Attorney-General pointed out, that is one reason that I have been opposed to Part 5 from the start.

As to the second question, the noble Viscount meets me half way in urging the criminal standard of proof. I am very glad of that. But I still do not savour the concept of a person being accused of criminal activity in general, even a particular kind of criminal activity in general. In that respect, I must beg leave to differ from the noble Viscount.

As to the noble and learned Lord's response, I have now listened to him on three occasions. I am grateful for the trouble that he has taken each time. I have not been persuaded; indeed, if anything, and if it is not offensive to say so, I feel even less persuaded now than I was at the start. In those circumstances, I feel obliged to test the opinion of the House.

5.35 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 7) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 149; Not-Contents, 132.

Division No. 1

CONTENTS

Aberdare, L.
Ackner, L.
Addington, L.
Alderdice, L.
Ampthill, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Barker, B.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Bhatia, L.
Biffen, L.
Blaker, L.
Blatch, B.
Boardman, L.
Bowness, L.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnham, L.
Buscombe, B.
Byford, B.
Caithness, E.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Chadlington, L.
Chalfont, L.
Chilver, L.
Chorley, L.
Clark of Kempston, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L. [Teller]
Cox, B.
Craig of Radley, L.
Crickhowell, L.
Cumberlege, B.
Denham, L.
Dholakia, L.
Donaldson of Lymington, L.
Eames, L.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Erroll, E.
Feldman, L.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Fowler, L.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Freeman, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Geddes, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goodhart, L.
Goschen, V.
Gray of Contin, L.
Greaves, L.
Hambro, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hanham, B.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Hayhoe, L.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Hooper, B.
Howe, E.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hylton, L.
James of Holland Park, B.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Kimball, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
Kingsland, L.
Laing of Dunphail, L.
Lane of Horsell, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lloyd of Berwick, L. [Teller]
Lucas, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
Maddock, B.
Mancroft, L.
Marlesford, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Montrose, D.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Naseby, L.
Newby, L.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Nicholson of Winterbourne, B.
Noakes, B.
Northesk, E.
Northover, B.
Norton of Louth, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
Oppenheim-Barnes, B.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Prior, L.
Pym, L.
Razzall, L.
Redesdale, L.
Renfrew of Kaimsthorn, L.
Rennard, L.
Renton, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roper, L.
Russell, E.
Russell-Johnston, L.
Sanderson of Bowden, L.
Sandwich, E.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B.
Selsdon, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Stewartby, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Thatcher, B.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Tope, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Vivian, L.
Waddington, L.
Wakeham, L.
Walker of Worcester, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Wigoder, L.
Wilberforce, L.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.

NOT-CONTENTS

Acton, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alli, L.
Amos, B.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bach, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Blackstone, B.
Blease, L.
Bledisloe, V.
Borrie, L.
Bragg, L.
Brennan, L.
Brett, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Bruce of Donington, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Chandos, V.
Christopher, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Crawley, B.
Croham, L.
Currie of Marylebone, L.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Desai, L.
Dixon, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gilbert, L.
Golding, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Grenfell, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayman, B.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Islwyn, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jones, L.
Jordan, L.
Kilclooney, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Layard, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mallalieu, B.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Mishcon, L.
Morgan, L.
Morgan of Huyton, B.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Nicol, B.
Pendry, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Puttnam, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rea, L.
Richard, L.
Rogers of Riverside, L.
Rooker, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sawyer, L.
Serota, B.
Sheldon, L.
Simon, V.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Temple-Morris, L.
Thornton, B.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Walker of Doncaster, L.
Warner, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Weatherill, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L. (Lord Privy Seal)
Woolmer of Leeds, L.

Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.

11 Jul 2002 : Column 857

5.46 p.m.

Lord Lloyd of Berwick moved Amendment No. 8:


    After Clause 246, insert the following new clause—


"246A PROCEEDINGS BROUGHT UNDER SECTION 246: DEFENCE OF RESPONDENT
(1) Where proceedings are brought against a person under section 246, and that person (the respondent) is the person through whose unlawful conduct the property is said to have been obtained, the following provisions of this section shall apply.
(2) If the respondent denies that he is guilty of the alleged unlawful conduct, he shall be entitled to have the question whether he is so guilty determined in a separate trial by the Crown Court, and the proceedings in the High Court shall be adjourned.
(3) If he is acquitted by the Crown Court, the proceedings in the High Court shall be dismissed.
(4) If he is convicted by the Crown Court, the Court must proceed under Part 2 of this Act, and the proceedings in the High Court shall stand adjourned until the proceedings in the Crown Court have been conducted whereupon the proceedings in the High Court shall be dismissed.

11 Jul 2002 : Column 858


(5) If the respondent elects not to exercise his rights under subsection (2), the question whether he is guilty of the alleged unlawful conduct shall be determined by the High Court on the criminal burden and standard of proof, and all other questions shall be determined on the civil standard of proof.
(6) If the respondent is found guilty of unlawful conduct under subsection (5), and the court is satisfied that he is in possession of recoverable property, the court shall make a recovery order in accordance with this Part of this Act, save that the recovery order shall not include property obtained by the respondent through unlawful conduct committed by him before the coming into force of this Part, and section 320(3) shall to that extent not apply."

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 286 [Compensation]:


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