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Lord Borrie: Later on, I anticipate, we shall hear from the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, subtle arguments about the basis on which the OFT is entitled to conduct investigations and to make references to the Competition Commission. He will probably argue—I do not wish to put words in his mouth—that the OFT should have a very strong basis or reasonable cause for believing, rather than suspicion, that this or that has happened. I suspect that he will base those arguments on the need for the OFT to have a good sound basis before it spends money and sends a matter to the Competition Commission. However, the noble Lord cannot have it both ways. If the OFT is to have a solid basis for doing its work and for raising individual investigations before sending matters to the Competition Commission—let alone for dealing with and prohibiting cartels and abuses of a monopoly position—it must carry out work and research and keep up to date with what the markets are doing.
The provisions in the clause are very general provisions. The word "general" in the heading above Clause 5 can be somewhat misinterpreted. The powers are general instead of specific. The noble Lord knows very well that there are specific provisions in the Competition Act and later in the Bill. The provisions in the clause are broad information-seeking matters; they are very broad general functions but they are necessary for the reasons that I have described.
Lord Kingsland: My intervention was not intended to add to the point made by my noble friend Lord Peyton because he had expressed himself so coherently on this point but I may further sharpen what he said. The distinction at which my noble friend was getting was that between targeted information gathering, which he regarded as perfectly legitimate, and the conduct of general fishing expeditions, which he emphatically does not think are legitimate. He concluded, having examined the provisions, that they were a recipe for fishing expeditions rather than targeted investigations.
Lord Peyton of Yeovil: I am very much obliged to my noble friend, who is absolutely right. I was concerned that the new body would fall for the temptation of following the very bad example of the Financial Services Authority in pursuing those who are in no way relevant to its affairs and who are nothing to do with money laundering.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury: I support all those who have spoken, which may appear to be an impossibility. I take the point of the noble Lord, Lord Borrie, and that made on this side of the Committee, which was that the acquisition of information by the state has become a new disease. We are well acquainted with the warehousing of that information in our debates on the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act and the Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Act.
- "The OFT has the function of obtaining . . . information".
Lord Sainsbury of Turville: I start by going back to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, a short while ago. The term "function" covers both powers and duties and has generally accepted legal meanings. The general function is set out in Part 1 and
the specific functions are set out in other parts of the Bill and other legislation. Clause 5 will give the OFT the function of obtaining and reviewing information relating to any of its functions in respect of competition and consumer matters. That information-gathering role, which may involve research, is with a view to the OFT having the information it needs to make decisions and carry out functions. I should have thought that we all agree that the essential nature of the OFT's work means that it should have good information so that it does not refer matters when there is not a strong or good case or a real knowledge of the markets.I do not know the answer to the noble Lord's specific question about whether the provision triggers powers in existing legislation. I shall take that away and if it does trigger such powers I shall write to the noble Lord explaining the powers that it releases in existing legislation. The power is very clear and relates clearly to the function of the OFT. I cannot see how the OFT could operate effectively without such a power. I urge that the clause should stand part of the Bill.
Lord Peyton of Yeovil: If the Minister will allow me to say so, I am profoundly disappointed that he has not bothered to take much notice of what has been said. We have an example of what concerns me. I do not remember when the debate took place, but presumably the FSA was given powers which were considered reasonable, sensible and necessary for it to achieve its purposes. In fact, in the exercise of those powers, it annoyed and vexed a whole lot of people for no reason whatever. The Government seem to take no notice of that; they simply go on with their huge inquisitive appetite. That is intensely irritating to people who have never thought of money laundering and who have never been involved in the issue with which the body that has the powers is concerned.
Clause 6 [Provision of information etc. to the public]:
Lord Kingsland moved Amendment No. 22:
- Page 3, line 2, at end insert—
The noble Lord said: I can, I trust, move this amendment relatively briefly. I once again remind the Minister of my Amendment No. 1. If he glances at it, he will see that in paragraph (c), I suggest that one of the objectives of the OFT should be the minimisation of,
One of the central functions of the OFT should be to monitor the impact of other ministries' legislation on the effectiveness of competition. In order to achieve
Lord Phillips of Sudbury: I rise to speak to Amendment No. 23, which stands in my name. The noble Lord, Lord Joffe, also put his name to the amendment, and it is a matter of inadvertence that the name of my noble friend Lord Holme of Cheltenham was omitted from it. I mention that in particular because, together with the noble Lord, Lord Joffe, he has huge business experience. My noble friend Lord Holme is an officer of the All-Party Corporate Social Responsibility Group of both Houses.
Clause 6 would be of only passing interest to me if it had confined itself to Clause 6(1). That states that the OFT's functions are to help public awareness of the ways in which competition may benefit consumers and to give information and advice. But subsection (2) also gives the OFT a discretion—it is expressed as a function which it "may" carry out—to publish educational materials, to carry out other educational activities and to support others who may be doing so or who propose to do so. I declare an interest as president of the Citizenship Foundation, which is a charity devoted to helping young people, in particular, to understand the complex society of which they are part.
Therefore, given that that is obviously a very intentional allowance and given that the OFT will, I hope, use the power given here to publish educational materials, I am anxious that it should do so on a platform consistent with citizenship education. I believe that that is more appropriate than is presently the case by dint of the language of Clause 6(1).
In saying that, I pay tribute to the Government for the fact that citizenship will enter the school secondary curriculum this autumn. It will be the first time in our history that that has happened and, in view of the fact that the subject will be taught on a wide scale, I believe that it represents a first world-wide. Every child in every year of his secondary education will have citizenship education to GCSE level.
I refer the Committee to the debate that we had in this House on these proposals some while ago and also to the debate in the other place. It has been of perfectly reasonable concern that citizenship education should be absolutely unbiased. It should not be prescriptive or, as some would say, propagandist. It should not endeavour to peddle a particular line but should strive to open the minds of young people so that they can decide for themselves what they consider to be right and proper. It is because the language of Clause 6(1)(a) is unnecessarily prescriptive that I propose its replacement by the words before the Committee.
Before I sit down, perhaps I may read from the statutory order that came before this House recently. It embedded citizenship education in the secondary curriculum. I hope that it will illustrate far better than
I close by saying that in key stage 4, which covers the 15 to 16 year-old age group, it is specifically stated in the statutory order that pupils should be taught about,
Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts: I find myself in sympathy with much of what the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, has just said. I tabled Amendment No. 24 because of the nature of the wording in Clause 6(1)(a). It seems to me that the use of the word "benefit" is inappropriate, and I seek to replace it with the word "affect". I am afraid that my writing is very bad, and the word should be "affect" and not "effect", as it appears in the Marshalled List. I hope that the Minister will forgive me on that point.
The purpose of the amendment is rather along the lines of what the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, has just said. It is to require the OFT to be even-handed in its approach in explaining the pluses and minuses of competition. Important and vital a body though it is, I do not see the OFT as a missionary or propagandist for competition. It is a regulator of competition. It ensures that competition survives—a very important function. But it should not have to trumpet its virtues all the time.
One reason that I am concerned about this matter is that, when one talks about the benefits of competition, very often one comes down to discussing it in terms of quantifiable elements, of which price is often the most easily assessable. Price is vital but it is not everything. There are less quantifiable elements—for example, service and availability—which are equally important.
I give a simple example. The food distribution world is now dominated by supermarkets, as the Minister knows. They offer long hours of opening, a huge range of foods and low prices. They meet the aspirations of the vast majority of people but not everyone. For some people—the elderly, the infirm and those living alone—a local shop is more attractive. It is not only the fact that such shops are physically close to the individuals; they provide an opportunity for a chat and the chance to pass the time of day.
How will that be dealt with when we discuss the benefits of competition? Competition from the supermarkets is driving out small shops, and, for some people, that is not a benefit. It may or may not be a loss, but it certainly affects the consumer. If the OFT is to have an educational role—I am happy for it to have one—then it must talk in a more balanced way about what is happening as a result of competition: who is winning, who is losing and what is coming from it. I do not doubt that the OFT can do that, but it should not have to talk just about the benefits. There are negatives to the way in which services are provided to some sections of society, as in the example I have given and in other similar cases.
I hope that the Minister will carefully consider how we can make the wording of Clause 6(1)(a) more even-handed and more appropriate to the role of this important independent body.
"( ) promoting awareness of the need to reduce the regulatory burden on UK business and commerce;"
"the regulatory burdens placed on UK business and commerce".
It must follow therefore that in dealing with the matters set out at the top of page 3 of the Bill, one of the duties that the OFT should have would be to promote awareness of the need to reduce the regulatory burden on UK business and commerce.
"During key stage 3"—
that is, the 13 to 14 year-old age group—
"pupils study, reflect upon and discuss topical political, spiritual, moral, social and cultural issues, problems and events. They learn to identify the role of the legal, political, religious, social and economic institutions and systems that influence their lives and communities. They continue to be actively involved in the life of their school, neighbourhood and wider communities and learn to become more effective in public life. They learn about fairness, social justice, respect for democracy and diversity",
and so on. That language is clearly far wider, broader and more culturally rich than it would be if it were to refer simply to telling the public about the benefits of competition. Therefore, I hope that, in considering the amendment, the Government will have regard to what the Department for Education and Skills is assiduously trying to do in its citizenship programme. Indeed, I hope that they will have regard to the assurances given in both Houses that that would be the nature of citizenship education.
"how the economy functions, including the role of business and financial services . . . the rights and responsibilities of consumers, employers and employees . . . the wider issues and challenges of global interdependence and responsibility, including sustainable development".
As I said, I hope that the Committee, and the Government in particular, will consider that, against that background, the amendment is entirely consonant with what the department is trying to achieve.
6.45 p.m.
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