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Lord Lucas rose to move, as an amendment to the Motion that this House do not insist on their Amendment No. 27 to which the Commons have disagreed and do agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 27B and 27C to the words so restored to the Bill and to consequential Amendment No. 27A, at end insert "together with the following amendment to the words restored to the Bill by the Commons' disagreement to Amendment No. 27—
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I support school forums in the form they have come back to us from the Commons. I agree with the Minister's remarks about the Government's current intentions as regard regulations. However, I want to go further.
There is much good work and practice in local education authorities and their communities of schools. I think in particular of a body created in Dorset by the Liberal Democrats called the Budget Advisory Group for Schools. It has proved an enormous success and a great help to that county in making difficult decisions about how money should be allocated between schools.
The success of that structure results from one simple fact: the schools feel that they own it. They have been responsible for designing how it works. They have been responsible for designing its constitution and who should be on it. They have control over its business. They are the only voting members of that structure.
I do not understand why we should seek to replace that structure by something from a centralised diktat. The noble Baroness gives me some comfort on that. But why should something that is working well and has the overwhelming support of local schools be overturned by central diktat?
These issues depend on local enthusiasm, local ownership and local decisions made to suit local circumstances. It is not appropriate that a central diktat can override all local wishes and impose something designed by Whitehall without reference to local conditions. I beg to move.
Moved, That Amendment No. 27D, as an amendment to the Motion, be agreed to.—(Lord Lucas.)
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, I support my noble friend. The only argument for having these uniform
Baroness Walmsley: My Lords, we on these Benches are minded to support government Amendments Nos. 27A, 27B and 27C. We are grateful to the Government for listening and responding to our objections to schools forums at earlier stages of the Bill.
Our concerns were never about consultation. Consultation is always a good thing. We are in favour of it. However, accountability is through the ballot box. These organisations were unelected and were to be given the power to deploy LEAs' budgets even if an LEA had good reasons for wanting to do something else. We believed that it was never necessary to take a sledgehammer to those few LEAs which did not consult adequately.
In the new amendment, subsection (3) contains the most significant change. It makes the organisations advisory. That is good. But we have some questions about subsection (3A). I hope that the Minister will be able to clarify the position. Subsection (3A) requires the authority to have regard to advice. What does that mean? Who decides if it has not had regard to advice? What happens if it does not?
Unfortunately, we are not minded to support Amendment No. 27D. We are afraid that the very LEAs which would choose not have an advisory school forum may be the very ones which need to improve their consultation. As to getting 5 per cent of governing bodies to agree and forcing the LEA to accept a schools forum, we are all aware of how difficult it could be to get a campaign of that nature going. If local authorities are not consulting adequately, it is good that they should follow a pattern which involves schools, and consult better.
On that basis, we shall be supporting the Government's amendment, but not that moved by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, in winding up this brief debate, I begin by dealing with the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas. I am pleased that he is happy that the main clause should be restored to the Bill. As the noble Lord has said, the effect of his amendment would be to make the establishment of schools forums discretionary for an education authority, unless 5 per cent of school governing bodies request one.
Our concern—and the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, put this extremely well—is to make sure that local authorities have the benefit of appropriate mechanisms. It is precisely those authorities that
The noble Lord's amendment proposes that there should be a 5 per cent mandate for a schools forum to be established. My main objection is that that would introduce an unnecessary additional hoop. We know that many schools support school forums. We have had a great deal of correspondence about this—some of which I have read to your Lordships. So I believe that it is inconceivable that 5 per cent would not be found in every education authority to do so. The education authority, unfortunately, will have been put to a huge amount of trouble in organising the plebiscite—if I may call it that—when it could have been engaged in constituting the forum itself.
I appreciate the spirit in which the noble Lord has put forward his amendment, but I genuinely believe that it is unnecessary. We have made the various changes. We have given a greater degree of local flexibility and discretion. It reflects the consultation exercise. We believe that schools will be pleased with this. We do not see any need for a prior referendum to establish schools forums. It would be unnecessary. I hope that on that basis the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, raised a question about advice. Advice is taken account of, but if the authority has a good reason to do something different, it can. It is a phrase used throughout education legislation and is well understood. I hope that that satisfies the noble Baroness.
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, before the noble Baroness sits down, can she confirm that there will be regulations and guidance following this proposal?
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, I believe that I have made it clear that we will want to make sure that we have regulation. Of course, we always ensure that where schools benefit from the guidance, the guidance is available to them. Again, we need to be cautious about assuming that all guidance to schools is unnecessary. Very often it is of great importance.
Lord Lucas: My Lords, I think that the noble Baroness, Lady Ashton, has misrepresented the amendment to some extent. First, the local education authority has an absolute right without consulting anyone to set up a schools forum. It does not require anyone else's permission under the amendment. It is merely if the local education authority decides not to and 5 per cent of schools ask them to that they must. So no difficulty is imposed on local education authorities.
I am delighted that the noble Baroness agrees that there is an overwhelming desire out there and that therefore there will be no difficulty in getting the 5 per cent of schools to agree, should the local education authority oppose the setting up of the schools forum. In the amendment—and I think that the noble Baroness has indicated that this amendment would work in that way—I am simply trying to make sure that existing arrangements supported by an overwhelming 95 per cent or more of the schools in the area can be allowed to continue. However, the Bill, as it now stands, with the amendments that have returned from the Commons, would put us in a position where some of these arrangements would be threatened, where some agreements reached locally will be overturned by central diktat and for no more reason than the convenience of legislation and central control.
It puzzles me sometimes; I thought the Liberal Democrats believed in local government, local decision making and local variation. They certainly seem to with most of their policies. But, given the opportunity to vote in this House, they vote for central control every time. Under those circumstances, I do not see that it is sensible to waste the time of the House in calling a Division, so I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Earl Russell: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, if he wishes to assert that we vote for central control every time, perhaps he will be present for the rest of today to see whether he remains of that opinion.
Amendment No. 27D, as an amendment to Commons Amendment No. 27, as amended, by leave, withdrawn.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Bill returned to the Commons with amendments and reasons.
27DPage 27, line 17, after "shall" insert
", if they so decide or if they are so requested in writing by the governing bodies of at least 5 per cent of the maintained schools in their area,"".
7 p.m.
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