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The Countess of Mar: I, too, support the intentions behind the amendment but I am a little concerned about the wording in subsection (2) which refers to "not less than six months". That strikes me as being very open ended. How long is "not less than six months"? Is it a year or is it 20 years perhaps?

I am not sure about the necessity for subsection (3). I understand that before we deport anyone we consider the human rights aspects.

Lord Hylton: I have added my name to these amendments, which have been extremely clearly explained by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford. There is an urgent need for the establishment in this country of safe houses. I suggest that that could be done most satisfactorily by carefully selecting a housing association or two to provide a place where these people—mostly women—will be able to receive the counsel and support they urgently need.

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I tabled a Written Question on this subject. The reply that I received more or less said that this is premature; that the Government will think about the matter. I urge the Government to think about it now and continually throughout the Recess.

As to the second amendment, I ask the Government not to limit the fund to the illegal proceeds of trafficking that they have managed to confiscate or otherwise acquire, but to ensure that it is of sufficient size to provide the kind of specialised housing and services mentioned in the second amendment.

Lord Thomas of Gresford: The noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, and the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, have reminded me that I have not spoken to Amendment No. 238ZHA, which is grouped with the first amendment. I hope that the Committee will permit me to have a second bite of the cherry and to speak to the second amendment.

This issue was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Alton, in the debate on the Proceeds of Crime Bill. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, committed the Government to review the scope of the recovered assets fund in advance of the next financial year, 2003-2004, and to consider, in particular, whether it should be used for the benefit of the victims of crime, including victims of trafficking. This assurance was given on 25th June this year in Hansard, col. 1227.

We seek an unequivocal commitment to providing funding for safe houses and support services within a specific time frame. As the noble Lord, Lord Alton, pointed out, the facilities are provided by only one agency, Eve's Housing, which has very limited facilities. Support for that organisation is needed now.

We call also for compensation to cover economic, physical and psychological damage. Article 6 of the United Nations protocol, to which I have already referred, deals with this issue. Under the protocol, governments are required to ensure that their domestic legal systems contain measures that offer victims of trafficking in persons the possibility of obtaining compensation for damages suffered. The money is available from the recovered assets fund. I ask the Minister how much further the Government have advanced in thinking about this since the reply was given by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, to the debate in June.

Lord Clinton-Davis: Will my noble friend indicate when, at best, the European law can be initiated, so that victims' rights are properly protected? How long will it take for the Government to ensure that that law becomes part of our law?

Earl Russell: I support my noble friend's comments about Amendment No. 238ZHA. The problems are similar to those of running a women's refuge—of which my wife and I have some experience and knowledge. The problem is one of obtaining decent financial support for people who have had to abandon their previous career and give up their source of

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income. They may be trying to break a drug habit. They may be recovering from physical trauma caused by quite severe injuries from time to time. That calls for a considerable sum of money.

I should like to express my delight at the tabling of Amendment No. 238ZH, and especially at the inclusion of Article 3. The noble Countess, Lady Mar, expressed doubt about that.

The Countess of Mar: I expressed doubt because I think that it already applies. I do not think that it is necessary to include it here.

Earl Russell: Yes, I fully understood that that was the noble Countess's position. I was about to say that I do not think that she quite understands the depth of fear that exists among people who are in this sort of position. One remembers the cases of domestic slavery—of the foreign maids who were kept more or less like dogs in the kitchen. These people simply did not dare to inform the authorities for fear that they might be deported. That is the main reason why so few perpetrators of trafficking are ever brought to justice. I do not think that any reassurance can be too great for that. At the very least, it must be absolutely explicit. If it is not, no victims will come forward—and if no victims come forward, no prosecutions will take place.

I take the point about the limitation of "not less than six months", but again this is a problem which is familiar in the management of women's refuges. People inevitably arrive there in a state of trauma not so very different from the states created by torture, to which I may refer later. Rates of recovery from that state are unusual. In practice, in that context the decision as to when it is time for the person to go out into the world and feel safe to face it again is based on careful daily observation by those who care for such people and on medical judgment. I have no doubt that that would prove to be the case here.

Without this time for reflection, a great many such people will feel unable to tell their stories. Again, the problem is the same as that of victims of torture, who frequently for a long time find it difficult to tell their stories—and then find that they are not believed because they did not tell them immediately. Time for reflection, time to find yourself again, to find a little shred of self-respect somewhere, is vital to the ability to give evidence; and that ability is vital not only for the safety of the victim—which is not thought about nearly enough in these cases—but also in terms of the ability to do justice. I warmly support the amendments.

Lord Judd: Before the noble Earl sits down, he has made an important point characteristically well. But does he agree that in the midst of all our deliberations we are beginning to lose sight of the needs of the people with whom we are dealing? It is a matter not simply of bringing prosecutions, but of enabling these people to be rehabilitated so that they can start to live a decent life again.

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I hope that my noble friends the Ministers, with their humane commitment, will see this point. If they are not motivated by the legal arguments, I hope that they will feel compelled at least on humanitarian grounds to take action.

Earl Russell: I could not agree more with the noble Lord. If I mention prosecutions, it is only because of the context in which the Bill puts them. I have no objection to persuading people when I can.

Lord Avebury: I think that the noble Lord, Lord Judd, is attributing greater altruism to the Home Office than it ordinarily possesses, and that arguments about prosecution are more likely to appeal to it than arguments about the humanitarian needs of the victims. I do not, of course, cast any aspersion on the Minister. I think of the Home Office as a mighty dinosaur which moves in its own way, and that the Minister represents the tiny brain at the front of the animal but probably does not know what goes on in its bowels or at the back of its tail.

So I think that we ought to consider what are the effects on prosecutions of not having a victim support system. As my noble friend Lord Thomas said, such prosecutions are very rare. I should like to ask the Government a specific question on this. In considering this new clause, have they consulted the police? In particular, have they spoken to the head of the vice and clubs unit of the Metropolitan Police, Chief Inspector Simon Humphreys? I think that he would have a lot to say about the need for victim support. The lack of such support prevents many of these women from coming forward and volunteering to give evidence.

Pursuant to what the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis, was saying, I should also like to ask the Minister whether there have been discussions at European level on a common system of victim support throughout the European Union? If so, what models have they been looking at? My noble friend Lord Thomas mentioned two such models. A third one which has commended itself to many people is the Italian system, under which six months' exceptional leave to remain are given initially when a person is in a situation of violence or grave exploitation and concrete dangers to his or her safety have emerged. That seems a quite useful model which might be adopted on a European scale.

I think that the offence of trafficking, and the victims of trafficking, should not be thought of within the framework of the English or Scottish systems of law, but considered as a phenomenon that covers the whole of Europe. As the Minister knows, trafficking crosses all boundaries, and the criminals who indulge in it are equally international. So it seems to me very important that we go beyond the framework decision, which has very little to say about victim support, and that we engage in discussions with our partners in the EU and come up with a robust system of help for victims that covers the whole continent.

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