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Lord Howe of Aberavon: I should like briefly to support the amendment. I share the confidence of the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, that the noble and learned Lord who is to reply will exercise a Welsh sense of temperance and be prepared to accept our arguments.
I should also like to pick up the point made by my noble friend Lord Biffen. I, too, had a period as a slaughterer-in-chief as Leader of the other place, although my term in that office came to a premature conclusion. Alongside my temporary addiction to that, I set my much greater enthusiastic commitment to the idea of pre-legislative scrutiny. It has been available for a long time, though it has hardly ever been used in the other place. I agree that we need to be cautious in applying it to everything, and I embrace it for one other final reason; namely, that the problem arises from our sheer legislative lust as a modern society. The size and number of Bills of every kind now being introduced is formidable. They go far beyond the bounds of manageability and intelligibility. If pre-legislative scrutiny can curtail that lust, I welcome it.
I still believe—this relates to a subsequent debate that we are to have—that we would be unwise to curtail our sitting hours quite to the extent proposed by these recommendations. A degree of flexibility will be necessary to achieve the outcome that we all want. On this amendment, I am very strongly in favour of our trying to fight in this House the battle that has been carried some way towards success in the other place.
Lord Carter: Perhaps I may say a few words on behalf of the usual channels, retired. I do not know what the other parties do. As Chief Whip, I asked all my colleagues on the Whip to let me know whether they were prepared to serve on committees and, if so, on which committees they would like to serve, and I know that my successor will do the same. So far as I could, I tried to put them on to the committees that they chose. In that way, they all served on a committee, though not always on the committee of their choice.
I have just glanced at the membership of the specialist committees of this House, which shows that we have expertise on those committees. I shall not go through the detail. The present system works quite
well. All we need do is tidy it up a little to make it perhaps a shade more formal. I would be tempted not to go down the very bureaucratic route in Amendment No. 4, but to seek an exchange of views between the parties in order to get the balance of expertise that we want. If one looks at the membership of all the specialist committees now, one finds that the usual channels have not done a bad job.
Lord Trefgarne: I agree with the thrust of my noble friend's two amendments and with his Motion, which we are to consider later.
As has been explained, the selection of noble Lords to serve on Select Committees rests with the Committee for Selection. I have the privilege of being a member of that committee. However, I have to tell your Lordships—I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Tordoff, will not mind my saying it—that the selection of names for consideration by the Committee for Selection is sometimes a little perfunctory.
On an early occasion soon after my election to that committee, my first knowledge of a recommendation from that committee of which I was a member was on seeing the Motion on the Order Paper in your Lordships' House. It transpired that apparently a very urgent decision was required from that committee, and that decision was whizzed through. It is true that someone attempted to write to me, seeking my agreement, but the letter was not received and the matter therefore came on to the Order Paper. That will not do. The Committee for Selection must have before it a proper list of names from which it can make a selection. At the moment, it merely rubber stamps the recommendations of the usual channels. I hope that that arrangement can be improved.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch: There is at least one Select Committee in your Lordships' House that does not really reflect your Lordships' views and, furthermore, clearly does not reflect opinion in the country at large. I refer, I regret to say, to the very important matter of our relationship with the European Union.
I must declare an interest in this, because I served on that committee from 1992 until 1996 and have been trying to get back on it ever since. Simply because that experience led me to the conclusion that the United Kingdom should leave the European Union, I have never been allowed back. It is worrying, however, that not a single member of that committee holds that view.
As to opinion in your Lordships' House, we have very little to go on. We very seldom talk about European matters beyond the currency. It is true that in the record vote in your Lordships' House in 1992, one-third of your Lordships voted to support a Motion to give the British public a referendum on the Maastricht Treaty. At the end of January 1997, in a record vote for a Friday in the House, your Lordships voted to support the Second Reading of a Bill which would have taken us out of the European Union altogether.
As to opinion in the country, which goes completely unrepresented on the committee, we do not have much to go on. However, in consistent opinion polls, in answer to the question, "How would you vote in a referendum to stay in or leave the European Union?", the come-out vote has not fallen below 40 per cent since 1987 and during the recent general election it reached 52 per cent. I repeat that no one on your Lordships' Select Committee would support that view—at least publicly.
The noble Lord, Lord Carter, says that he always did his best in that regard. But I have to remind him that a deputation went to him some two years ago, including Members from his own Back Benches, these Benches and the Cross Benches, and nothing happened.
Lord Carter: Lord Shore of Stepney was appointed to that committee after the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, visited me.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch: In that case I take back my comment. However, the noble Lord, Lord Carter, must admit that as, regrettably, Lord Shore is no longer with us the lacuna remains. I merely put the example to your Lordships and hope that in future Back Bench opinion will be better represented.
Lord Williams of Mostyn: There are times when one longs for the guillotine. But I am happy to reassure the noble Lord, Lord Denham, that there is no prospect or intention of using any of the changes to introduce anything like a guillotine measure in this House. First, I do not believe that the House would vote for the idea. Secondly, as my noble friend Lord Barnett said, it is not possible for this Government to operate it as we have only 28 per cent of the vote. Furthermore, I do not believe that it would chime with the way in which we do our work—which we all know is perfect in every respect. I give that reassurance in the terms required by the noble Lord.
The noble Viscount, Lord Bledisloe, made me the most attractive offer, which I carefully wrote down. He proposed that if amendments similar to those of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, were passed, I would no longer have to sit on the Procedure Committee. That is the best inducement I have ever been offered.
I am sympathetic to the thrust of what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, and others. It is important that we do not have the appearance of a cosy stitch-up. I am happy to take the matter away, as the noble Lord invited me to, in order to see whether we can do better. For instance, the procedure mentioned by my noble friend Lord Carter was working. I know because I was party to it and he frequently said that on occasions he had insufficient volunteers to fill committee places. I see the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, nodding. That is sometimes true. The noble Lord, Lord Lamont, is a member of the European Union Committee and I do not believe that his views differ enormously from those of the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch.
My noble friend Lord Peston made the point that becoming a member of a committee requires a commitment and that must be so. Local authorities and the Bar Council, for instance, have a rule that if members do not turn up for six months, or a particular number of meetings, they are automatically excluded. That is a thought put forward almost at random.
I undertake to consider the matter. I would caution against a register as it would become too formalised and bureaucratic and many noble Lords would not want to be as unfortunate as to put their names on a register. Your Lordships write in asking to be on committees. I received a letter from a colleague the other day in respect of a particular committee and I passed it to the Chief Whip at once.
I take on board the points that have been made; we need to be transparent and to be able to reassure all sections of the House that their interests are fully safeguarded. As has been said, there is a requirement for Back-Benchers to sit on the Committee of Selection. The point made by the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, was well made; that if one has a Committee of Selection, that simply stereotypes the pre-decision that has already been made. That is unsatisfactory and is a matter for the scruple of those who sit on the Committee of Selection. And of course ultimately the Back-Benchers have the majority in this House.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Howe of Aberavon, invited me to be as subtle as possible. When he used the word "apparatchik", I thought that he was using two words: that it must be some elderly Welshman living in Port Talbot whose name was App Aratchik.
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