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The Earl of Erroll: I approve of carry-over. I think that it will prevent the kind of thing that I have seen sometimes at the end of a Session when the two Front Benches have had to collude in order to get defective legislation through. They want to get it on to the statute books. To restart the whole thing in the next Session would not be time effective.

We should have protections. First, the Parliament Act protection is essential; and, secondly, Amendment No. 8 tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Norton of Louth, is a valuable additional protection. We should look at that.

As to the remainder, I have a nasty feeling that some people are trying to filibuster. I think that is pointless. I shall at be least brief.

6.30 p.m.

Lord Carter: Perhaps I may attempt to deal with what might happen in the trial period of two Sessions; and with the legitimate concerns of the Opposition about the effect of carry-over on the number of Bills which might go through.

The first point to remember is that the carry-over procedure has been available to both Houses for three or four Sessions. Only one has been presented—the Financial Services and Markets Bill, now an Act. One takes a view on whether or not that was a success as a carry-over. I believe that in the two Sessions in which we may conduct this experiment the number of Bills available for carry-over will be quite small.

On resources to be made available to deal with pre-legislative scrutiny and so on, the first requirement is to get the departments to produce the draft Bills. That is more difficult than noble Lords realise. They have to be Bills which will be subject to the proper pre-legislative scrutiny laid down in the report. They must be suitable for carry-over: they will not have a time restraint on them. Some Bills have to be dealt with in a certain time for legal and other reasons of policy. They also have to be at the right time of the Session. A Bill would not be carried over which had started in the House just after the Queen's Speech; it would be one which started towards the summer or even in the carry-over period. If one puts all those facts together, the number of Bills available for carry-over in the experimental period will be quite small. We shall have a good chance to see how that works and whether we wish to extend the measure.

Noble Lords have referred to the effects of carry-over on the programme and the fact that the Government will have more Bills dealt with as a result of carry-over. My own view is that the Government will not get more Bills through. Indeed, they may even get fewer through. Noble Lords have to think in terms of a Parliament and not a Session. As a former Chief Whip, I think of Parliament as a pipeline of Bills. Let us suppose that it was a common procedure in each Session to carry over a number of Bills—that will not

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happen for some years. Bills would be carried over from the first to the second Session. They would crowd out some Bills which would then be carried over from the second to the third Session, and from the third to the fourth Session. The fourth Session would probably be the pre-election Session and would be short. I think, frankly, that in the fourth Session the Opposition will be in a strong position. The noble Lord, MacGregor, with his experience, and the noble Lord, Lord Norton, nod. Over the four or even the five Session Parliament, I think that the carry-over will not result in the Government obtaining more Bills. If they are lucky they may obtain the number that they want. They could well find that they obtain fewer. Throughout a Parliament, the Opposition will not have less power with the use of carry-over but perhaps even more than they now have.

Lord Jopling: I wonder whether at this stage another retired usual channel can add some comments. We have not sufficiently discussed two parts of the overall package. Although I realise that the debate is about carry-over, it is inextricably linked to the business of pre-legislative scrutiny.

I say immediately that during the years I was involved in such matters in another place, as the Government Chief Whip, I was strongly opposed to pre-legislative scrutiny. In my time we had virtually none. I opposed it for the simple reason that I believed that it would prolong the time that each individual Bill took in the House of Commons. I speak from my experience in the House of Commons but I think that it is also applicable to this House.

I opposed it on the assumption that the Government would not cheat in the way that they arranged pre-legislative scrutiny. I take the point ad absurdum. It would be very easy for the Government of the day to get a Motion such as we are discussing through the House and then to say, "You will have one Session of three hours for the pre-legislative scrutiny". That will be very much in the hands of government. I always opposed pre-legislative scrutiny because I imagined that it would take several weeks to take place. But it all hangs on how pre-legislative scrutiny will be arranged.

When the noble and learned Lord the Leader of the House responds, it will be crucial for him to tell us in some detail whether scrutiny will be artificially curtailed or will continue for a number of weeks. That is crucial to the package we are discussing.

On carry-over, noble Lords have spoken about the great weapon of time, the Opposition's only real weapon. My noble friend Lord Dean referred to that. But the Opposition's great weapon of time is largely effective only if one can use the time to run the Government's legislative programme up against some buffers. One can talk for ever if one wishes, but various buffers always cause the Government of the day to ask, "Shouldn't we try to put a stop to this? Shouldn't we try to get a deal?" There is the buffer of the late hour of the night. That is not very effective. Governments

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are usually prepared to continue throughout the night if necessary. They hate to do so but if it has to be done it has to be done. That is one form of buffer.

Another form of buffer is often a forthcoming Recess—whether it is Christmas, Easter or whenever. Oppositions exploit that buffer by using their weapon of time. But by far the biggest buffer is that of the end of the Session. If, as Government Chief Whip, I had ever had the opportunity of carrying over Bills, whether or not they had had pre-legislative scrutiny, I would have given my back teeth to do so. If we agree in this House for a carry-over of government Bills which have had pre-legislative scrutiny, it is one of the biggest gifts we can give to the government business managers. In time it will lead further and further towards doing away with the early Sessions. If the measure is agreed, as one set of legislation rolls into the next Session, the Government will be more and more inclined to ask, "Why do we have Sessions?" That does not mean that I do not have any brief for the State Opening of Parliament but I know that some of my colleagues do.

We must understand that we are being invited to give the Government a massive lead over the Opposition. My much admired and sadly deceased friend, the late Lord Cocks—he was the Government Chief Whip and then Opposition Chief Whip in another place—always used to talk to me about the importance of maintaining the balance between opposition and government. If we allow carry-over to occur, we shall seriously destroy the existing, correct balance between government and opposition. I am strongly opposed to allowing any carry-over.

Viscount Bledisloe: Inevitably, there is a conflict here between the concept of pre-legislative scrutiny—which, provided it is done properly, is highly desirable—and the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, that the only power of opposition is the threat of time. The answer to that lies in the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Norton of Louth, which, for some reason, is not in this group, but to which we shall come.

Surely, the speech made by the noble Lord, Lord Jopling, is a House of Commons speech. All that the procedure allows is for the House to agree a Motion for carry-over where there has been pre-legislative scrutiny. If there has been phoney pre-legislative scrutiny, such as that to which the noble Lord referred of three token hours, or if it is thought to be a government manoeuvre, as the noble and learned Lord the Leader of the House, the Chief Whip and the noble Lord, Lord Carter, frequently and rightly point out to us, the answer is simple: the House should not agree to the Motion.

Although the solution proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Norton, is much better, I do not see what is the great danger posed by the proposal at present. We will not be pre-legislatively scrutinising—if there is such an appalling phrase—many Bills. If the Government try to cheat, we simply do not agree to the carry-over Motion.

Lord Campbell of Alloway: I should have agreed to the amendments, had it not been for Amendment

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No. 8, in the names of my noble friends Lord Norton of Louth and Lord Elton. I support Amendment No. 8. Therefore I cannot support these amendments. Amendment No. 8 would provide the balance to which my noble friend Lord Jopling referred and impose an effective discipline. So I hope that my noble friends will feel able to withdraw the amendment.

Like my noble friend Lord Dean of Harptree, I find many of the report's proposals acceptable. Paragraphs 17 and 20 are indeed welcome. I entirely agree with my noble friend that we should not be asked to divide today; we should have more time for consideration. Indeed, if we are asked to divide on a take-it-or-leave-it basis, in view of the debates that have ensued and shall ensue, we should be doing an injustice to the interests of the House. I am not so concerned about injustice to any particular noble Lord, but that would be an injustice to the House. Whichever way a forced Division—take the lot or leave it—were to turn out, it would not be understood, it would not be in the interests of the House and it would send a wrong signal.

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