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Lord Lucas moved Amendment No. 7:
- Page 4, line 10, after "above." insert-"Our endorsement of Group recommendation (b) is also subject to the proviso that the Procedure Committee has made, and the House agreed to, recommendations for procedures to apply in pre-legislative scrutiny committees that will ensure:- that there is time available for appropriate, thorough and methodical consideration of the draft bill
- that draft secondary legislation is available to members of the pre-legislative scrutiny committee at that stage or, if that is not practical, not later than the formal second reading stage of the bill- that the circumstances under which the House of Commons will undertake pre-legislative scrutiny of a draft bill on behalf of the House of Lords are understood and explained fully."
The noble Lord said: One of the principal effects of this amendment, if passed, would be to delay our procedures considerably, so I shall not press it. It has been tabled purely as a probing device because I believe that we should make clear to the Government what it is that we expect by way of pre-legislative scrutiny and procedures if we are to grant carry-over.
As my noble friend Lord Jopling pointed out, it is necessary that time is made available for the thorough and methodical consideration of a Bill. I have been involved in one pre-legislative committee, that set up for the Freedom of Information Bill. We were given a month, but that proved not to be nearly enough time. Although the time-scale will always be compressed, we must make it clear to the Government that when they approach us with a bid for pre-legislative scrutiny we expect longer than one month. We ought to set a guideline. To that end, I suggest that a period of three months is approximately what the Government should expect us to spend on the pre-legislative scrutiny of a Bill of any degree of complexity. People from outside become involved; they must gather their thoughts and produce evidence. We must then consider it and bring forward rational amendments.
In this process we also need to deal with the status of secondary legislation. One of the problems of taking Bills through this House is how infrequently we are able to consider draft secondary legislation until we reach Report stage, at which point holding a reasonable conversation becomes difficult, if not impossible. One of the functions of the pre-legislative scrutiny of a Bill ought to be that the department concerned has an opportunity to produce in draft form secondary legislation in sufficient time to be ready for the ordinary processes of the House. That should be made clear to the Government when they submit a Bill for the advantages of pre-legislative scrutiny.
It is clear from the procedures before us that the Government anticipate that occasions will arise when pre-legislative scrutiny is undertaken by the House of Commons alone, and that we are required to give the concessions. I should very much like to understand the circumstances under which that would take place. When would the House of Commons alone indulge in pre-legislative scrutiny? How would this House make known its agreement to that decision? How would this House be involved in the decision reached on taking the Bill through that process rather than through a Joint Committee or separate committees, as was done with the Freedom of Information Bill?
Finally, perhaps I may return to a point made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Donaldson, and others on the previous amendment; namely, relating to
page 4, line 15. I should like to be told what the sentence beginning with the word "Carry-over" would mean in practice. I beg to move.
Lord Norton of Louth: I rise to speak to Amendment No. 8 which has been grouped with Amendment No. 7. We have already held a discussion on the principle of carry-over; my amendment seeks to impose a discipline.
In relation to the proposals before the Committee, I think that we should decouple the recommendations with regard to pre-legislative scrutiny and carry-over; they should stand on their individual merits. Pre-legislative scrutiny is extremely important and I am a strong supporter of it, but much will depend on how it is done and equally, if not more important, what notice the Government take of such scrutiny. I do not believe that there should be an automatic link as proposed in the report of the group on the working practices of the House.
The case for carry-over should be seen on its own merits. I support the principle of carry-over and have done so for a number of years, but not in the form endorsed by the Procedure Committee. I support it, but with a defined cut-off point. Under the proposals before us, the time available to take a Bill through the House will vary depending on the stage at which it is carried over. That could, I believe, be to the benefit of government and not of the House.
In the past, the Procedure Committee of the other place has defended the existing sessional cut-off on the grounds that it constituted "a useful discipline". I have been persuaded of and accept the case for a measure of discipline, having previously taken a more relaxed view of the time that should be accorded to Bills. We have a tighter discipline in the United Kingdom than is the case in many other parliaments, but the existing discipline is not helpful to Parliament.
Bills are introduced early in a Session and go into Committee at roughly the same time, putting a strain on the Members and resources of the other place. Then they arrive in your Lordships' House, creating a heavy burden just before the Summer Recess and during the spill-over period. The process places an unnecessary burden on both Houses and militates against effective scrutiny.
Getting rid of the sessional cut-off would allow Bills to be introduced at different points during a Session and thus allow parliamentary resources to be marshalled more effectively. Imposing a specific cut-off point—say, as proposed in my amendment, 12 months after introduction—would maintain the discipline of the present arrangements. Indeed, it would impose a tighter discipline given that the length of a Session is far from fixed. Sessions can, and sometimes do, last for more than 12 months.
The case for a fixed cut-off point has been recognised in the other place as well as in this House. I cite the words of a Member of the other place in support of a fixed cut-off point:
- "The Commons would have much more opportunity to carry out scrutiny of legislation if Bills were carried over from one Session to the next. Plainly there must be a time limit on the period
- within which any Bill must complete all stages, and the quid pro quo for greater flexibility on the carry-over between Sessions should be a requirement that all Bills must complete all stages within a fixed period of months".
The Conservative Party's Commission to Strengthen Parliament, which I chaired, suggested 14 months, primarily in order to allow time for Special Standing Committees to be appointed. I am content to opt for 12 rather than 14 months, and I have therefore put 12 months in the amendment.
For the reasons I have given I support carry-over. It will benefit Parliament—but it must be subject to a specific cut-off point. The noble Lord, Lord Carter, referred to discipline. My amendment puts that discipline into words and fixes it. I commend the amendment to the House.
The Earl of Erroll: As regards Amendment No. 7, I strongly support the thrust of the arguments of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas. If we knew what was going to be in secondary legislation it would stop a lot of the suspicion voiced in debates at earlier stages and could shorten them considerably. Noble Lords wonder what will happen and often ask for clarification of what is in the Minister's mind. The amendment would be very productive.
I strongly support Amendment No. 8 because it sets a sensible timetable. At the moment, when a Bill is introduced to the House, the amount of scrutiny we can give to it is dependent on whether we have one year or three months. That is illogical. Having one year whenever a Bill is introduced is sensible.
In the interests of brevity, the noble and learned Lord the Leader of the House said that he agreed with everything the noble Viscount, Lord Bledisloe, said, which was that carry-over is determined by a vote in this House if the Bill is to be carried over in this House. I should hate to see the House having to go back to Ministers and repeating everything with which they agree.
Baroness Lockwood: Amendment No. 8 seems to be redundant because there is a timetable. The original recommendation, which has been accepted, is that if a Bill is carried over into a second Session and is not passed in that Session, that is it, the Bill has had it. So there is a timetable. It may be just over 12 months, it may be two years, but there is a timetable. The amount of time allowed will depend on where the Bill comes in the first Session.
Lord Campbell of Alloway: In response to the noble Baroness, the amendment will impose the discipline to which I referred on the previous amendment under the extant regime. That will be an improvement in the
general parliamentary process. That is why I have supported this amendment and rejected the previous one, although I abstained.
Lord Trefgarne: My noble friend Lord Lucas explained that his was a probing amendment. I, too, would like a clearer enunciation of the benefits of legislative scrutiny. We have decided that that will be the way we pre-qualify Bills for consideration for carry over, which, in the minds of your Lordships, is clearly one advantage.
Four other alleged advantages were described in the Leader's Group report. Having read them, I am not very much the wiser. I hope that the noble and learned Lord will be able to enlarge upon those four alleged advantages.
I very much support Amendment No. 8, which stands in the names of my noble friends Lord Norton and Lord Elton. It is an improvement on the proposals contained in the Procedure Committee's report. Naturally I would have preferred the amendment that I proposed to the Committee a few moments ago, to which it disagreed. I strongly support, in substitution, the amendment proposed by my noble friends. I hope that the Committee will also agree to it.
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