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Lord Trefgarne: I endorse what my noble friend Lady Blatch has said. When the report of my noble friend Lord Norton came to the Procedure Committee there was, frankly, ample time for us to have considered his suggestions. Unfortunately, the chairman advised us that we could not consider the proposals because my noble friend's report contained no amendments to the draft report. As my noble friend had not had sight of the draft report—indeed, nor had many others, even members of the committee—that
was not possible. Thus it was that my noble friend's suggestions were not considered by the Procedure Committee. I consider that to be most regrettable and I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Tordoff, the chairman of the committee, so decided.
The Chairman of Committees: Perhaps I may give some slight explanation. I received the treatise, as it might be described, from the noble Lord, Lord Norton, at a very late stage: the Procedure Committee was not exactly well under way, but I believe that it was the last piece of evidence that we received. It was several pages long and contained a number of proposals, all of which were extremely interesting. But procedurally it was impossible to use, because none of the items related directly to the working group report that we were considering. That was the difficulty with which we were faced. Had someone, or the noble Lord himself, tabled an amendment—
The Chairman of Committees: To the paper that was in front of the Procedure Committee. This was the only way in which we could proceed.
Lord Crickhowell: I had not intended to intervene again, but the simple fact is that not only was this matter raised by my noble friend Lady Blatch, but she actually put a Motion to the committee on which we proceeded to vote. The report states:
- "It was moved by the Baroness Blatch, in paragraph 6, to incorporate into the report the points made on carry-over by L. Norton of Louth in his memorandum to the Committee".
Lord Elton: I should be grateful if we could get away from holding a post-mortem on the procedure, which is not what we are here to discuss, and return to the amendment to which I have the honour to have affixed my name—and which the noble Viscount, Lord Bledisloe, has made so much more attractive to me since I did so, by showing me that it is more widely applicable than I had first understood.
With one exception, the noble Viscount, Lord Bledisloe, made a speech with which I could find no fault—one that I should like, with his permission, to adopt as my own, thereby shortening proceedings. I should, of course, say that our debates at the beginning of Session are not idle debates, as he suggested. I trust that the ping-pong he anticipates will not be the ineffective ping-pong that he said it would be.
As to what we are about to do, the noble Viscount said that the proposal could not possibly be accepted today because it requires acceptance by the other place. Surely, in that case, the same goes for every proposal in the report. I therefore do not think that that objection stands.
The amendment is an advance on the current situation and much more disciplined than what is proposed in the report. I warmly support my noble friend Lord Norton. I encourage noble Lords on all sides to follow him into the Lobby.
Lord Carter: I have just been able to work out the point that I wished to make earlier. The amendment refers to the Bill being introduced "into Parliament"; that is, into the first House. Let us consider a Bill—let us call it the Animal Health Bill—that is introduced into the first House in, let us say, July. It is then carried over. It finishes its course in the other place, for example, and then comes to us, perhaps early in the following year. Will there then be a temptation for the Opposition to table an amendment that the Bill should not proceed into Committee until certain conditions have been met? If those conditions, whatever they might be, are not met, the Bill would not go into Committee. It would therefore not receive Royal Assent by July, and would fall. The Government in this House will always be in a minority. Does not this proposal on a 12-month rule produce a new device for the Opposition by which it can delay the progress of a Bill?
Lord Elton: Such a device is already available for use in Bills coming through the current buffers, as my noble friend Lord Norton calls them. It has never been used before. It is scarcely an argument to say that it might be used in future.
Lord Carter: We have not used the procedure being used on the Animal Health Bill since the 19th century.
Lord Williams of Mostyn: The noble Lord, Lord Lucas, particularly asked me a question. I appreciate that it relates to the previous amendment, but, in courtesy, I think that I should say what I understand the position to be. I shall be as brief as I can. It derives from the question asked by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Donaldson.
If a Bill is introduced into the Commons and is still in the Commons at the end of the Session, the decision on carry-over is for that House alone. That is situation one, and it occurred in relation to the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000. When that Bill came to this House, we did not inquire, rightly, whether it was carried over. To carry over a Bill which has already reached the second House requires two Motions: one in the first House, to take the Bill through all its stages pro forma in the following Session; and another in the second House, to take the Bill, when received in the following Session, pro forma all the way to the point it reached in the first. That is the answer. It is a good deal more intricate than I had originally understood.
There are, I think, one or two things I need to mention to your Lordships. I would hope, if we can go forward, to take the indications from your Lordships, to deal as closely with the Commons authorities as I can—because their procedures differ. Equally, however, we can move forward on reform generally only if we move forward together.
I take entirely the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas. I am undertaking that reasonable time and resources will be made available for pre-legislative scrutiny in this House. It will not—I repeat my assurance to the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde—be the Commons doing most of the pre-legislative scrutiny and our doing most of the carry-over. I do not think that we need anything incorporated into statute. I have given those undertakings quite freely and voluntarily. If I do not abide by them, the House has an immediate and obvious sanction which I am sure it would readily adopt.
On Amendment No. 8, I think that the noble Viscount, Lord Bledisloe, and the noble Lord, Lord Norton, are right. Indeed, I thought that I saw the noble Lord, Lord Norton, nodding. The amendment states:
- "We recommend that government bills should be eligible for carry-over"—
- "government bills should be eligible for carry-over but subject to the provision that any bill that has not received Royal Assent twelve months after it has been introduced . . . shall be deemed to have fallen".
In any event, I take the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Norton, with a great deal of sympathy. I am quite happy to see whether we can work through alternatives. I think that it would have to be in consultation with the Commons. The reason that I think that 12 months is in a sense too arbitrary is derived from the precise example given by the noble Lord. He thought that 14 months might be more appropriate in some circumstances. I am perfectly happy to take this away and consider it with the Lord President at the other end of the building and see whether we can reach some accommodation.
The other thing that I should say is that we have to be careful that we can go forward harmoniously with the Commons. A certain amount of concern has been expressed to me about the proposal in relation to what we might do about scrutiny of the Finance Bill. One of the concerns is that we might envisage proposing amendments to the Finance Bill at the very time that the Bill was having detailed consideration in Committee in the Commons. The other serious concern that has been expressed to me—I think that I have to share it with the House—is the possibility of damaging the balance between the respective roles of the two Houses relating to financial business, which predate the Parliament Acts by a good 200 years. Whatever one thinks about the validity of these concerns, I am obliged to recognise them. I am certainly obliged to retail them to this House.
I am eager to proceed by agreement. I am happy to give an undertaking that I will try that dialogue. I am happy to refer the financial scrutiny matter to the Joint Committee. It is well within its remit. There is a danger
that the future of the sub-committee's effective existence would fail if we did not get an agreement from the joint Lords/Commons committee.I think that I have dealt with all the questions that have been raised on this amendment. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, thinks that I have been helpful.
7.45 p.m.
Lord Strathclyde: I am not entirely certain what the noble and learned Lord meant in his final comments about the sub-committee on the Finance Bill in paragraph 13 of the working practices group. This is an important part of the overall package of change; namely, that the Finance Bill should be treated under a new and different procedure which would allow for far more effective scrutiny by this House, using the expertise that we have readily available. I hope that what the noble and learned Lord meant was that, whatever happens next year, we will be setting up this sub-committee of the Economic Affairs Committee to deal with the next Finance Bill, and we do not need to wait for any recommendation that may or may not come from the Joint Committee on Lords Reform—which, of course, is dealing with an entirely different matter. I wonder if the noble and learned Lord can confirm that.
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