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Lord Williams of Mostyn: No; the noble Lord is quite right in his understanding of what I said, which may not accord with what he wishes. However, I cannot pretend to the House that I have not had the strongest possible representations. If we do not achieve a co-operative outcome, the effective future of the sub-committee of the Economic Affairs Committee will be seriously imperilled. I would prefer, if I can, to take forward the proposal of the working party and the Procedure Committee to see what accommodation may be arrived at. I think that one way of usefully doing that is through the Joint Committee. It is well within its remit, because it deals with powers as well as composition. I am obliged to tell your Lordships these things because I have been told them quite plainly.
Lord Roper: On the particular point which the Lord Privy Seal has just raised, we have heard what he has said. I think that some of us were aware that this is a sensitive issue because of the Commons privileges in these matters. Clearly, we can go forward only through co-operation. I hope, however, that it will be possible to find ways to do that without having recourse to the Joint Committee. That should be our last resort. That can be done but if we can a way of moving forward without having to do that, it would be much better.
Lord Elton: Will the noble and learned Lord elaborate on the attractive remarks that he made about taking further the suggestions of my noble friend Lord Norton of Louth? We have to accept that these matters must be conducted in amity with the other place and that unnecessary conflict is not
desirable. Will the noble and learned Lord tell us how, if agreement is secured, that will be done and whether we can expect a further Motion on the Order Paper in the next six, eight or 10 months proposing how the matter should be taken forward, or will it simply be a matter of smoke signals?
Lord Strathclyde: Paragraph 9 of the report sets out the procedure for the new finance sub-committee. Am I to understand that even if the House approves that, it will not happen? In which case should not the noble and learned Lord have brought forward an amendment? If the House approves the report, I should expect the Economic Affairs Committee to set up a sub-committee when the next Finance Bill is published, as that is what we are approving. I join the noble Lord, Lord Roper, in emphasising what is written in the report; namely, that there is no intention whatsoever to challenge Commons financial privilege. That is not the purpose of the sub-committee. Its purpose is to help the Treasury and to help the scrutiny of legislation and to improve it, which is what the whole report is about.
Lord Williams of Mostyn: I accept that and I have no intention of moving an amendment to a report to which I have put my signature. I am simply telling the Committee as candidly as I can of the difficulties that have arisen and of the way that I hope to navigate through them. I repeat that I am certain in my own mind that if we can get some form of agreement with the Joint Committee, that will give the sub-committee's effective existence much more of a fair wind.
I say to the noble Lord, Lord Elton, that I believe that the Commons Modernisation Committee sat today. I have been engaged here throughout the day and I do not know what conclusions it reached. As the noble Lord pointed out, the Leader of the House of Commons has raised some questions about the 12-month cut-off. I do not know the result of those discussions. I shall find out and I shall see whether I can get any accommodation. If I can, I shall in the first instance write to the noble Lord, Lord Norton of Louth, and place a copy of the letter in the Library. If the noble Lord, Lord Elton, then proposed a way forward, that would be a matter on which the House should take a view. However, I suggest that the amendment does not achieve what it seeks to achieve and is unduly restrictive and rigid.
Lord Lucas: I know that I should conclude my remarks on the amendment but that would mean that the noble Lord, Lord Norton of Louth, would not have a chance to conclude his remarks on his amendment.
Noble Lords: Withdraw the amendment!
Lord Lucas: I am not going to withdraw it; I am going to talk.
The Chairman of Committees: It may assist the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, if I point out that his amendment
was put to the Committee. That is the amendment that we have been discussing. When he stood up originally he said that he did not intend to move the amendment, but having made a long speech there is no alternative other than to put the amendment before the Committee so that it can be discussed. We have been discussing Amendment No. 7. If the noble Lord cares to withdraw it, we can move on to Amendment No. 8.
Lord Lucas: But we have been discussing Amendment No. 8 at the same time. Therefore, if the noble Lord, Lord Norton of Louth, wants to respond to that discussion in the usual way, he should do so before I withdraw my amendment and we move on to Amendment No. 9.
However, if the Committee wishes me to proceed, I shall. I am grateful for what the noble and learned Lord has said. It is clear that we shall have to feel our way through this matter. I hope that he feels that some markers have been put down with regard to what we shall find acceptable; namely, that we shall require a reasonable amount of time; we shall want Bills which are not skeleton Bills but allow us to discuss the substance of what is proposed; and, finally, that the circumstances under which the scrutiny is undertaken by the Commons alone are fully explained and agreeable to this House.
I realise that this is a matter that the noble and learned Lord will have to evolve in conjunction with his colleagues in another place. I hope that they do not feel that we shall in any way be a pushover on this matter. We shall not fail to become extremely upset if we feel that they are trying to put one over on us and make us do the carry-over when they have had the benefit of the pre-legislative scrutiny. I thank the noble and learned Lord for his explanation of line 15. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Norton of Louth moved Amendment No. 8:
- Page 4 leave out paragraph 7 and insert-
The noble Lord said: I shall be brief. I am most grateful to all Members of the Committee who spoke in the previous debate on the amendment. I am also grateful to the noble and learned Lord the Leader of the House for his constructive response which constitutes a good way of going forward. In the light of his indications of the way that he wishes to proceed, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave withdrawn.
Lord Lucas moved Amendment No. 10:
The noble Lord said: It is clearly becoming a practice of this House that if one has an amendment in a group which is not the lead amendment, one can make a speech to it when one reaches it in the Marshalled List. Perhaps we ought to formalise that as it is becoming very much the way that things are being done, rather than everything being consolidated.
Amendment No. 10 has the simple effect of moving the closing time for business from ten o'clock to eleven o'clock. If I am here until ten o'clock—it appears that I shall be here until ten o'clock tonight—I may as well be here until eleven o'clock. I have nothing else to do with the extra hour except go home and read the newspaper. If we could devote an extra hour to business in this Chamber, there would be less pressure on the working day and on other days when we could usefully do other things. We would not find that the business expanded sideways into other days. We would be able to get more into the days which we have already voted to this House. In terms of my working day, an eleven o'clock finish works much better than a ten o'clock one. I beg to move.
The Earl of Caithness: I should like to degroup Amendment No. 15 which stands in my name and is grouped with this amendment as it concerns a different point. I should like to speak to it separately.
Lord Graham of Edmonton: We are discussing one of the major issues in the report. I admire the courage of the Procedure Committee and the working party in grasping a nettle I have held in my hand many times over the past few years. One needs only to be here regularly at ten o'clock to realise what a farce the proceedings of this Chamber degenerate into from time to time.
Last week I was present in the Chamber at ten o'clock during proceedings on the Enterprise Bill. For a long time there were just seven people in the Chamber. That figure included the noble Lord on the Woolsack. The Enterprise Bill is an important Bill. However, on that occasion it was important only to the two or three people who wanted to move amendments and attend the discussions. The amendment is a sad reflection on its mover. The noble Lord, Lord Lucas, wishes to alter the proposed ten o'clock finishing time. My working day starts before ten o'clock in the morning. It is all very well for the noble Lord to tell us what is convenient for him. However, we must consider the impression that we give to those outside the Chamber with regard to the way in which we conduct our affairs.
Of course, I have on occasion been present in a packed Chamber well after ten o'clock and well after midnight. That has occurred on half a dozen occasions
Those events happen rarely, and I know the argument that will be put if in some way or another—not by guillotine, but by agreed convention—we seek to terminate our business at about ten o'clock: what will that do to the rest of the business and how will we do it? Discipline: that is how you do it; by forbearing what noble Lords think is their right, not just to stand up and speak, but to detain the House and the servants of the House and incur expense, in order that they can delete "5" and insert "6", or speak to a brief that has been given to them by an outside interest, as has often been given to me.
If the Committee allows the amendment tonight, it will be sliding away from the self-imposed task of the Leader of the House—whom I commend and applaud for sticking to it—of grasping the mettle over the past two or three years and making the House face up to changing its image. That image is that when it pleases one or two individuals to keep the House going, whether the House likes it or not and whether the Opposition speakers like it or not, whoever it is is entitled to do it.
I do not believe that they are entitled to do so, and if the amendment is pressed, I hope that it is defeated.
The Earl of Erroll: I agree with all the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Graham of Edmonton. Self-imposed discipline on speaking at great length is important, particularly late at night. I realise that many noble Lords are experts in various fields and have risen to great positions. They may want to speak after dinners or they may be invited to functions. It is important that your Lordships are out in the real world and do not live in an ivory tower in Parliament. So I disapprove of regular late-night parliamentary sittings. Noble Lords should be able to go out to dinner and meet real people.
Having said that, I do not agree with the proposal. We should have flexibility so that on great occasions we can run on late if we need to.
7 The Procedure Committee endorsed the principle of carry-over In 1998. We recommend that the House should take this endorsement further. However, we do not endorse Group recommendation (b). We recommend that government bills should be eligible for carry-over but subject to the provision that any bill that has not received Royal Assent twelve months after it has been Introduced into Parliament shall be deemed to have fallen. Carry-over would be achieved, after discussion in the usual channels, by a motion agreed by one or both Houses, depending on where the bill has been introduced. We believe that the case for carry-over stands on its merits and should not be tied necessarily to any other recommendation for change."
Page 6, line 14, leave out "The Procedure Committee endorses Group recommendation (g)(a) that the House should normally rise by 10 pm on Mondays to Wednesdays." and insert "The Procedure Committee rejects Group recommendation (g)(a) and recommends that the House should normally rise by 11 pm on Mondays to Wednesdays."
8 p.m.
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