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Lord Marlesford: I do not agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Graham, said about wasting of time. I have not been here very long; about 10 years, but that has not been my observation. This is an important subject and I support my noble friend.
The one lesson we have learned, particularly in the past few years, is the huge importance of this House scrutinising legislation properly in a way that the other House does not. I am against the proposal for a ten o'clock rule on the grounds that it is unnecessary and undesirable. I have looked at the House of Lords' weekly statistics for the 45 weeks so far in this Session to the week ending 20th July, during which there have been 171 sitting days. On 72 of those days we have sat
beyond ten o'clock; 42 per cent. It is difficult to take the analysis further because of Friday sittings, of which there have been 12, but in essence the figures show us that the average total time per day for the 171 days is 6 hours 52 minutes.If one assumes that by definition on the days on which we did not sit after ten o'clock we rose by ten o'clock, it means that on most of the days on which we sat after ten o'clock, we rose a relatively short time after ten o'clock; probably well within the eleven o'clock deadline.
Lord Graham of Edmonton: Is that on the assumption that a day starts at 2.30 p.m. and that in a working day noble Lords do nothing before 2.30 p.m. and that their working day starts at 2.30 p.m. and lasts for about six hours? That may be the case for some, but not many.
Lord Marlesford: I am sorry, but what the noble Lord said is totally irrelevant to the point I am making, which is about the business conducted by this House and the length of time the House sits in order to perform its functions. Of course, in that context I mean from 2.30 p.m. Monday to Wednesday, from 11 a.m. on Friday and from 3 p.m. on Thursday. It is important the House should be able to sit longer when necessary.
I take a couple of examples; first, there will be occasions when Bills have long Second Reading debates. We know that when Motions are time-limited, the excellent system which the other place does not have is that the total time available is divided by the number of speakers, allowing extra time for the Front Benches, which can mean as little as five or even three minutes per speaker. That is fine for a general debate, but not for a Second Reading of an important Bill. It is an essential part of proper scrutiny of legislation that in a Second Reading debate noble Lords should be able to speak at the appropriate length on the points they wish to make.
Secondly, I turn to Committee stage. I can see a time when, if a ten o'clock rule is in force, in practice there will not be full time for certain considerations. Negotiations made for a number of days in Committee will not prove adequate. I would hate to see this House having the same reason for not considering legislation properly as the other place gave us only a day or two ago, when its Members said that they did not have the opportunity.
The one thing this House has that the one at the other end does not—often because the Government do not think it should—is the proper opportunity to discuss legislation. It is unnecessary to place a ten o'clock constraint for the reasons I have given. It is undesirable because in practice it will limit this Chamber's crucial function in debating legislation. I support my noble friend and I hope that the noble and learned Lord will see the strength of these points.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon: I understand the reasons for the Procedure Committee's recommendation and the reasons for the amendment. Both will be attractive
to many noble Lords. But we have to be careful. At the present time it is possible for the House to be adjourned at ten or eleven o'clock, or at any other time, but perhaps having a guide will persuade noble Lords to get on with the business. But it is extremely difficult for us to do that when undigested legislation is sent here from another place.When a Bill such as the ratification of the Nice treaty is discussed for only three days by the House of Commons, of course this House wants to take a long time to discuss the important issues involved. When the House of Commons pushes through a Bill such as the Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Bill in three days; a Bill of 125 clauses and 13 schedules, of course it has to be discussed in this House almost ad nauseam. This House made some very relevant amendments which helped the Bill and helped the freedom of individuals in this country.
There are many reasons why this House sits late, which lie not here, but along the corridor in another place. When we are talking about restricting the time in this House, we perhaps ought to discuss things with the House of Commons to try to ensure that they do the job they are elected to do: scrutinising legislation properly and holding the Government properly to account.
Second Reading debates are not the only ones that might concern us. There are other great debates on great matters, such as hunting, on which many people wish to speak. It is essential that if the recommendation, or even the amendment, is carried, the Government are prepared to give additional days so that everyone who wishes to speak in these debates can be accommodated. That has been the position in this House, which we need to retain. In this place, anybody who wishes to make a contribution may do so.
With those restrictions, the House may well wish to agree that usually we would like to get away by 10 o'clock, but there may be exceptions. Also, we expect legislation that arrives in this House to have been properly thought-out, properly prepared and properly discussed by the elected representatives who sit in the Chamber along the corridor.
Lord Trefgarne: I said earlier today how opposed I was to the idea of a guillotine. A number of your Lordships expressed support for that view and the noble and learned Lord said that he had no such intention. I of course accept that that is his position.
However, those on the Government Front Bench will not always be there. Some day there will be other Ministers on the Government Front Bench and other people sitting on the Opposition Front Bench. Maybe they will change over after the next election. I hope so.
Be that as it may, nobody can bind Ministers for ever. I would like to ensure that there is the least possible temptation on Ministers or anyone else even to think about a guillotine. Making the closure arrangements more flexible will move in the right
direction in that regard. For that reason, I support the amendment and I hope that the Committee will agree to it.
Lady Saltoun of Abernethy: One of the things that really wastes time in this House and stops us rising at a reasonable hour is Statements. There may be one or even two and sometimes they go on for well over 40 minutes and nearly to an hour. I respectfully suggest that we should be much more careful about taking Statements unless there is a shortage of business. My noble friend Lord Errol thinks that perhaps they should be taken in the dinner hour. If they must be taken, that would be a good idea.
Lord Mayhew of Twysden: I shall briefly support my noble friend Lord Lucas. I listened carefully, as I always do, to what the noble Lord, Lord Graham, said about the image of this House. I am more concerned about the reality of the job that this House does than I am about the image. However, I do not think that it is a bad image. The image in the country seems to be that this House puts its back into the job of revising legislation that, all too frequently, has not been considered at all in the other place. That impression received some validation last night when at about 25 past one in the morning—or perhaps a wee bit before that—the noble and learned Lord, Lord Archer of Sandwell, who is sitting opposite me now, delivered a necessary and searching examination of a provision in the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Bill. There were not too many people in the Chamber at the time, but the debate was necessary.
It does not matter whether the House is crammed at some late hour. What matters is what job the House is doing and whether it needs to be done. Because I see in the recommendations an inhibition on the ability of the House to do that, I support at least what my noble friend Lord Lucas proposes.
The problem is that a recommendation to rise at 10 will become an expectation and then it will become something like a moral obligation. There are only a certain number of available days that can be used to make up the time that has been lost. In effect, we will run into something very like a timetable. That is my anxiety.
8.15 p.m.
Lord Skelmersdale: I support the amendment. The noble Earl, Lord Errol, spoke a few minutes ago—or perhaps it was more than a few minutes—about the need for Members of your Lordships' House to go out and meet real people and get real experiences in the outside world. My codified way of putting that is that we are an amateur House in that we get our knowledge, and very often our incomes, from outside the world of politics. For that reason, I hate the idea of being asked to sit at 11 o'clock on Thursdays. If my noble friend's amendment were agreed to, we would save that time and not need to sit on Thursday mornings.
Lord Monson: I was away from the House for a couple of hours and accordingly missed the speech with which the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, introduced the amendment. I apologise if any of my remarks have already been made by him.
Of course in principle we would all like to rise by 10 p.m. Indeed, I think we would all much prefer to rise by 8.30 p.m. However, our workload must be got through one way or another. Unless noble Lords cut their speeches dramatically at all stages of Bills, which is a vain hope not least for the reasons advanced by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mayhew, judging by precedent and according to figures kindly supplied by the Chairman of Committees, we are going to have to sit for an extra 17 days each year in order to get through the same amount of work. That may put a different complexion on things when noble Lords consider the options.
If we were to rise by 11 o'clock, as the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, suggests, my calculation is that we would have to sit for only an extra eight days each year, which is manageable. Seventeen days certainly is not.
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