| Previous Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, perhaps I may say that he makes valiant attempts to help the Government when they are really in trouble. I am sure they are grateful for that. However, I did not concentrate on whether they make a mess of it. I concentrated on what happens if the body fails. That is the problem. So many other bodies have power to intervene: the local authority, the Secretary of State and other people. These companies are not different from private companies. Under the proposals, they are set up under company law.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, the noble Baroness will have an opportunity to reply, in conformity with the rules of this House.
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, I said, "Before the noble Lord sits down". I shall be guided by the Clerks of the House not by the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh. Perhaps I may say that the bodies are under company law and will be obliged to conform with company law.
Lord Dearing: My Lords, I picked up a point which I understood the noble Baroness made: that Mr Miliband was in error in saying in another place that these companies were like other companies. The reason that they are different is that they are subject to the supervisory oversight of the LEA and that the LEA would have to give consent. Of course, they are covered by company law. They are companies under company law.
As regards what happens if they fail, I understand that if they are a purchasing company the obligations of the LEA are the same as if they were not a purchasing company and it was an informal arrangement. We have been told that several times.
If it is a service providing company, it is a company limited by guarantee or limited by shares. If the company fails, its obligations are determined by the guarantee or the shares which will be very small indeed. They do not need to be substantial. I do not believe that the issue is not clear or that there is some bogey that we do not understand.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, I would expect the local education authority to play the role that it plays with all maintained schools in ensuring that schools are behaving in their best interests, and playing the role that the noble Lord, Lord Dearing, outlined. I have no difficulty with that.
Perhaps I may say to the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, that of course schools have been sharing their skills for a long time. This is purely an additional way in which schools can operate. It is nothing more. There is no hidden agenda. After all the work we have done together, I was concerned that the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, should still consider that there might be a hidden agenda. There is not.
We are looking at ways in which schools can enhance the role they play in the future. This is one way. In another place, my honourable friend Mr Miliband referred to private companies. He referred to
the fact that private companies already can sell goods and services to schools. The profits go to the private company. I wish the private company no ill. But I want schools to be able to use their resources, abilities and skills in that way. That is what the provision is about.Economies of scale are important to schools. Schools often work together in new ways. Through the PFI I was recently involved with a group of schools which will come together on a site—primary schools, secondary schools and further education colleges. Although that does not relate to this part of the Bill, it demonstrates that there are different ways.
Having listened to debate on Clause 20 in another place, I say with deep sincerity that we have had many opportunities in this House to consider the relationship between different clauses.
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. I listened to the Minister's remarks about private companies. Can the company sell goods and/or services to a third body that is not an educational body?
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, I am delighted to answer that point directly. In Clause 10(1) the power is limited to forming companies to provide services to schools to facilitate provision to schools. The local education authority functions relate only to education functions. So these companies cannot go further than the provisions specified in those clauses. I hope that I have answered fully the noble Baroness's point.
I have deliberately given inoffensive examples because it is an inoffensive measure. It is not designed to take our schools into an Alice in Wonderland or any other kind of world. It is important that Government think about where schools are going and ensure that they have the ability to develop their resources and skills. The provision is simply a part of that process and no more.
We have debated substantially the issue and the entire Bill. It has been a privilege to be part of that debate. I believe that this is nothing more than an enabling measure for some schools to take forward. On that basis, and on the basis that we have best schools, good teachers and governors who are able to do new things, I commend the Motion to the House.
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, once again I am grateful to the Minister for her reply. Clause 10(1)(a) refers to "any schools". There are language schools and private schools, as well as all the maintained schools. The paragraph does not specify "maintained schools"; and there is no qualification in the definitional subsection (8) of what are "schools". So a third body could be another school—"any school", to cite the Bill.
To return to the intervention of the noble Lord, Lord Dearing, I refer him to Clause 11(7). That provides that regulations—yet another raft of regulations—can be produced to,
- "restrict the circumstances in which a local education authority may refuse to give any consent applied for under subsection (1)".
I am not satisfied. Answers have always been given in general terms. The specific questions that we have asked since the Bill's inception have not properly been answered.
9.9 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 12F) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 112; Not-Contents, 120.
Addington, L.
Alderdice, L.
Astor, V.
Attlee, E.
Barker, B.
Biffen, L.
Blaker, L.
Blatch, B.
Boardman, L.
Bowness, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brittan of Spennithorne, L.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnham, L.
Byford, B.
Caithness, E.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Chadlington, L.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Clement-Jones, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L. [Teller]
Crickhowell, L.
Cumberlege, B.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Denham, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Fookes, B.
Fowler, L.
Freeman, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Geddes, L.
Goodhart, L.
Goschen, V.
Gray of Contin, L.
Greaves, L.
Greenway, L.
Hanham, B.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
James of Holland Park, B.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jopling, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
Kingsland, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Laing of Dunphail, L.
Lane of Horsell, L.
Lawson of Blaby, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Liverpool, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lucas, L.
Lyell, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
Maddock, B.
Mancroft, L.
Marlesford, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Moore of Lower Marsh, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Noakes, B.
Northbrook, L.
Northesk, E.
Norton of Louth, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Patten, L.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Pym, L.
Rawlings, B.
Razzall, L.
Renton, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Roper, L.
Rotherwick, L.
St John of Fawsley, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sanderson of Bowden, L.
Seccombe, B.
Selborne, E.
Selsdon, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B. [Teller]
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Shrewsbury, E.
Skelmersdale, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior,
L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Trefgarne, L.
Tugendhat, L.
Vivian, L.
Waddington, L.
Walmsley, B.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Willoughby de Broke, L.
Acton, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alli, L.
Amos, B.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bach, L.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Bledisloe, V.
Borrie, L.
Brennan, L.
Brett, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Burlison, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Chandos, V.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Crawley, B.
Currie of Marylebone, L.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Dearing, L.
Dixon, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Watford, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gilbert, L.
Golding, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Grabiner, L.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grenfell, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Islwyn, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jones, L.
Judd, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Mitchell, L.
Morgan, L.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Nicol, B.
O'Neill of Bengarve, B.
Orme, L.
Pendry, L.
Peston, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Prys-Davies, L.
Radice, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Renwick of Clifton, L.
Rooker, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
St. John of Bletso, L.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Serota, B.
Simon, V.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Tomlinson, L.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Walker of Doncaster, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Mostyn, L. (Lord Privy Seal)
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Young of Old Scone, B.
Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.
9.20 p.m.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
| Next Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |