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Lord Whitty: My Lords, in every sense of the word, this has been an extraordinary debate. What is before your Lordships is a simple Motion to move into Committee on those parts of the Bill which the House decided last week we would take first and to move into Committee on the day decided in the normal way by the usual channels.
Almost all of the earlier speeches did not relate to the business today. Although it is quite rare, the noble Lord, Lord Jopling, is correct that at any time the Motion to move into Committee can be challenged, debated and negatived if the House so wishes. I have to say that if the House continues to have such wide-ranging debates at four-monthly intervals on the simple Motion to move into Committee, we shall rapidly lose the ability to deal with business in this House in a sensible way.
I have no intention of replying to every point because, frankly, I do not think that it is in order for me to do so. What is before us, and is in order for me to reply to, is the Motion that the House move into Committee on those parts of the Bill referred to on the Marshalled List to which a significant number of amendments have been tabled by government and noble Lords.
The points dealing with the implications of the reports, relating back to the Motion passed in March, are good but they are not relevant to the Motion. We are not debating any part of the Bill which has implications arising from those reports. We have, therefore, two and a half months to consider the implications of those reports before we return to the matter in October.
Baroness Byford: My Lords, the Minister knows that I raised the issue last week. References from those reports have implications.
Lord Whitty: My Lords, no recommendations from those reports, apart from informational ones, relate to any legislative measures in relation to scrapie or TSEs. The recommendations in the report which might be relevant to the Bill relate to the FMD part of the Bill, the contiguous cull and the pre-emptive cull vaccination. Your Lordships will have had far longer than is normal to deal with government papers and reports before we consider their implicationstwo and a half months.
Many of the points raised are good. Many will no doubt be debated at some length in October. But they are not relevant to the decision today. Many of the points regarding scrapie may reflect wide-ranging views in this House and outside. Those are quite important points to be raised in Committee and perhaps returned to on Report and at Third Reading. But they are not relevant to the decision whether we move into Committee today.
Those who oppose the Motion are in fact denying your Lordships the ability to debate those points. That seems an extraordinary move by those who think that we should have a wider debate on the implications of animal health legislation.
I do not think that I need say more. If noble Lords wish to oppose the Motion, no doubt they will. If they do so and are successful, I think that it is a sad day for the House. The implications of doing so have to be considered seriously. Above all, I think that the good will of the Government in accepting both the letter andI would arguethe spirit of the Motion in March will have been ignored. On closer examination, I do not believe that what we ask today could possibly be said to prejudice the implications of the Motion passed in March.
The clauses to be debated today deal with scrapie. There are no substantive implications from the reports. We can debate the implications of the reports in October. Let us debate the part of the report relating to scrapie during what remains of today. I commend the Motion.
Lord Jopling: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, will he apply himself more closely to the views expressed from all sides of the House, including the Cross- Benches? The only party not to support the consideration that this might be the wrong time to go into Committee is the Liberal Democrats. But has the Minister noted that on the second page of the Marshalled List, the noble Lords, Lord Livsey and Lord Greaves, have given notice of their intention to oppose the Question that Clause 5 stand part of the Bill? They intimate on the Marshalled List that they do not want any of the scrapie legislation to go through. That indicates that they would be in sympathy with not proceeding with debate on it today: they want the clause to be dropped.
Lord Whitty: My Lords, I cannot follow the noble Lord. Far be it from me to defend noble Lords on the Liberal Democrat Front Bench, but they are behaving in the way that this House normally behavesand which those who want to stop the House moving into Committee argue against.
Those noble Lords have different opinions from the Government on this part of the Bill. I have no doubt that they and others have different opinions from us on other parts of the Bill. That is what Committee stage in this House is for. The suggestion is that we should be prevented from doing what is normal: scrutinising a Bill in Committee. That is to me an extraordinary assertion. I cannot think that the noble Lord, Lord Jopling, really believes that that should be so.
Viscount Bledisloe: My Lords, before the Minister sits down, he has not referred to how we shall deal with the remainder of the Bill in October. I am sure he is technically right. Whether he was wise to do as he has, I do not know.
Will the Minister undertake to write to noble Lords who are concerned well before we return in October stating how he intends to go ahead with the Bill in the light of the points that I and other noble Lords have made?
Lord Whitty: My Lords, I undertake to indicate in writingit will probably now be over the Recessto those noble Lords who have spoken in the debate which amendments, if any, the Government intend to put forward in Committee in the autumn; and whether there are procedural implications of so doing.
Baroness Byford: My Lords, do I understand from the Minister's undertaking that he will give the Government's view on the reports before we return to debate the issue?
Lord Whitty: My Lords, I said that I would give the Government's consideration of what changes to the Bill the Government wish to propose in the light of those reports. The full implication of the reports is much wider than the Bill. Let me make it clear that I am not undertaking to have given overall consideration to those very detailed reports. But I give an undertaking to let know Lords know how the Government intend to deal with those parts of the reports which relate to the Bill. I believe that we shall see that the implications are to accelerate and consolidate the Bill, but I do not argue that today.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (Baroness Serota) in the Chair.]
Baroness Byford moved Amendment No. 1:
The noble Baroness said: We now have the pleasure of starting our debates on the Bill. Noble Lords will note that I have tabled 10 amendments together on the groupings list. Although it is not the fault of the Government, I would have liked to have broken down the amendments into smaller groups. However, because they all relate to the TSE regulations, I decided that they should be taken together. Perhaps I should say at the outset that, in particular with regard to Amendment No. 2, I hope that we shall have a more detailed discussion about the difference between the words "susceptible" and "suspect". The issue is extremely important.
I shall move Amendment No. 1 and speak at the same time to Amendments Nos. 2 to 10. Part 2 of the Bill deals with scrapie. Our discussions on dealing with the Bill before the Summer Recess turned entirely on that part. The caveats I have expressed with regard to the Anderson and Royal Society reports have been met with repeated assurances that Part 2 deals only with
scrapie and, as such, is not affected by either of them. Indeed, the Minister has confirmed that this afternoon.I understand that scrapie is a form of TSE. I further understand that tests are being undertaken to try to isolate OSE, the form of BSE in sheep, which in turn is another form of TSE. For all I know, there may be yet other forms of TSE waiting to be discovered. All that is irrelevant to a part purporting to deal solely with scrapie. I am concerned that the wording has been used deliberately to leave a door open in legal terms for a future circumstances of which we are yet unaware. I am even more concerned that the wording may have no particular purpose, but is in place simply because it might be used at some point in the future to create a situation of which we might not approve. In the event of any further discoveries relating to TSE, we think it only right that the Government should come back to Parliament to discuss those developments.
I turn now to Amendment No. 2. The Official Journal of the European Communities dated 31st March 2001 refers to Regulation 999/2001 of 22nd May. It lays down the rules for the prevention, control and eradication of certain TSEs. The preamble at paragraph 12 refers to the,
Perhaps I may translate that into human terms. I have had two heart attacks which makes me, I believe, susceptible to them. I sincerely hope that I am not displaying at this moment any clinical signs compatible with a heart attack. I am not a heart attack suspect. Certain families have appalling and heart-wrenching histories of susceptibility to specific diseases. Tests prove that family members are much more than ordinarily susceptible, yet some still do not succumb to the disease in question.
With regard to Amendment No. 3, I have mentioned already the distinction to be made between the terms "susceptible" and "suspect". The Committee will appreciate the depth of my dismay at the notion that anyone would slaughter an animal simply because it is susceptible to a disease which, at present, is only a theoretical possibility, not even a probability.
After the excessive cull of so many animals during the foot and mouth outbreak, surely no one would wish to legislate for the on-farm slaughter of yet more animals. Clause 4(2)(j) of the TSE regulations allows for the service of notice in connection with slaughter,
which should be confined to the slaughterhouse. There is no need for an inspector to slaughter on farm premises.Turning to Amendment No. 4, farms tend to be places which attract families. It may have something to do with the country air or the relative isolation, but families and farms go together. Indeed, the Government are pushing farmers to diversify and thus to encourage this. Modern families are encouraged to use computers, both at home and at school. Indeed, some local education authorities have a system of lending computers to pupils who do not have a suitable model available at home.
Some parents buy a computer for each child as part of their education, or to help them keep up with their work. Surely, therefore, it is not necessary for inspectors to interfere with computers on farm premises that have nothing to do with the business in hand, in particular after the treatment meted out to some farmers during the foot and mouth outbreak.
Many farming families rely on the money brought in by the farmer's wife in her "day job". Sometimes these redoubtable ladies work from home using their employers' computers, and sometimes they will use the farm computer. It is wrong to confer on state veterinary inspectors powers to access and check the operation of a machine which may contain commercially sensitive information. Or do all inspectors sign the Official Secrets Act? The Minister will recall that during the foot and mouth outbreak, many farmers were required to do so.
I move on to Amendments Nos. 5 to 10. At this point I should apologise to the Minister and the Committee. I may have gone beyond the elements dealing with scrapie, owing to a misunderstanding on my part, and moved on to dealing with animal feedstuffs, which may not be appropriate to our discussions today.
We have tabled the amendments to probe the situation with regard to Part 3 of the TSE regulations. Will the Minister explain how Regulations 11 to 29 sit with regard to our own laws covering the production and use of mammalian meat and bone meal? The Explanatory Note refers only to the European regulations, while Part I of Schedule 9 does not state specifically that they, together with the savings, encompass the whole of the then existing legislation.
Once more, I apologise if I have moved further ahead than I should have done. I beg to move.
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