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Lord Carter: It is quite important. Some briefing I have seen suggests that the words refer to the genotype order. However, the noble Lord's amendment could be read as meaning that the national scrapie plan shall not be made unless laid in draft before, and approved by a resolution of, both Houses.
Lord Livsey of Talgarth: I can assure the noble Lord that that was certainly my intention. I am sorry if that is not clear in the amendment as drafted.
Lord Carter: It suggests that the scrapie plan should be in the order. The briefing is about the genotype.
Lord Whitty: I agree that there is some ambiguity in what the noble Lord is proposing, but his clarification in a sense alarms me.
When dealing with any disease, human or animal, there comes a point at which the Government may need to use mandatory powers. The Bill provides us with an opportunity of using those mandatory powers. I cannot say at what point the powers would be triggered. That will depend on the effectiveness of the voluntary scheme. But we need the powers to speed up the degree of voluntariness, because we know that eventually they may become compulsory, and to ensure that, if we need them, we have the powers on the statute book and do not need to come back to Parliament at some stage when matters are not proceeding very well.
When dealing with malaria, animal health disease, TB, or whatever, Parliament has on occasions granted the Government powers to implement aspects of disease control or to improve conditions. The same powers would apply in this area. But it is not the disease eradication plan that has to be laid before and approved by Parliament. The genotype order is one of the instruments that the Government have, and one of the bases on which the plan will be carried out. However, the totality of the plan will inevitably alter as circumstances alter. To freeze it in a parliamentary, quasi-statutory way at one point in time is not the most effective means of disease control or flock improvement.
Therefore, the idea that the plan itself should effectively be a parliamentary instrument is not the appropriate way forward. Clearly, Parliament needs to know what powers the Government have that can be compulsorily enforced and needs to ensure that the best and widest range of opinion is mobilised in support of the plan; but the plan itself is to be more flexible than the parliamentary procedure.
The Countess of Mar: Will the Minister explain why we need to speed up this plan? If BSE is suddenly found in sheep, the Minister can use the TSE Regulations 2002. Should not this matter be taken at a reasonably leisurely place, as proposed by the noble Lord, Lord May? The Minister already has the necessary powers to deal with an emergency. Why does he need these extra powers?
Perhaps I may suggest to the noble Lord, Lord Livsey, that this amendment should have come right at the beginning, immediately before line 35, under the
heading "Sheep genotypes", which would have made it clear that it referred to the proposed national scrapie plan.
Lord Livsey of Talgarth: I did not provide the order of amendments. I would have preferred it to be in a different position.
Baroness Byford: In response to the noble Lord, Lord Livsey, the Minister said that it was difficult to give a time at which the scheme may become mandatory. Perhaps I may put the question another way. Have the Government set themselves a target of, for example, 50 per cent, 60 per cent or 20 per cent scrapie-free flocks?
Lord Whitty: There are three different time dimensions. The present voluntary scrapie plan already has in it certain time benchmarks. If the take-up rate under the voluntary plan continues at its present rate, 50 per cent of the rams in the national flock should be scrapie free in 25 years' time. In our opinion, that rate of progress is too slow. It is slower than originally envisaged by the scrapie plan. The reason for having mandatory powers is to speed up the process and to reduce it significantly from 25 years. It would be unwise to have an absolute target date, but it is hoped that it will be significantly below that level.
The reason that we need the instruments on the statute book immediately, even if they are not used immediately, is so that the industry and everyone involved can see that the Government and the leaders of the industry are determined that this plan will be carried out. We believe that that will speed up voluntary involvement with the scheme, because people will see that it will definitely be delivered. At the moment there is some doubt that it will be delivered. The earlier we make that clear, the better and faster the scheme will move. That is the degree of urgency.
Baroness Byford: I hesitate to press the Minister further. We have now moved from "targets" to "significantly". For a Government who believe in setting targets, I am surprised that the Minister is a little shy. I thought that the Government always tried for targets. But enough of reminiscing. If, by the time we come to Report, the Government have some idea of a set target plan, it would be immensely helpful, not only to this House but to the many people outside the House who will be affected by the decisions we make today.
Lord Livsey of Talgarth: Despite the criticisms, in some respects justified, of the drafting of my amendment, there is no statement that there will be a national scrapie plan. We have been talking piecemeal about different aspects of possible targets, and there will be more of that when we debate other amendments. Some of the animal health measures adopted in the middle of the last century occurred under schemes whereby disease was eliminated on a county-by-county basis. Plans of that kind are dynamic, they move forward, and times change.
Only the principle of the national plan should perhaps be accepted. Whether it will become mandatory or remain voluntary is a matter that will evolve, as it did at other times, with the elimination of TB. Nevertheless, I am trying to probe the kind of strategy that is to be approved. It is implicit in everything we are discussing that there is a national sheep plan. We know about it. We should focus our attention on how it is to be carried out, on the priorities contained in it, on the most important aspects of it, and on whether it is to remain voluntary or become mandatory. I believe that we need a framework in which to discuss the gradual elimination of scrapie from our national sheep flock. For the time being, however, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
The Countess of Mar: Before the noble Lord sits down, I should like to point out that TB has not been eliminated. A few small pockets were left and, unfortunately, it is now rife all over the country.
Lord Livsey of Talgarth: That is correct. I was considering the historical context, not the present situation. I am well aware of the huge problems with regard to TB. We all know that there are many reasons for those problems. I do not intend to refer to them now.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
The Duke of Montrose moved Amendment No. 19:
- Page 15, line 4, at end insert—
The noble Duke said: In moving Amendment No. 19 I shall speak also to Amendment No. 19A. Transparency is of crucial importance in the specification of sheep genotypes by the Minister. If the agricultural community is confident that there is a thoroughly researched and broad-ranging basis to the order, there is a greater chance that it will encourage co-operation and mutual understanding. For the same reason, I believe that any order made under this new section should be presented before Parliament.
The Bill provides for the Minister to specify by order, and without process of consultation, which sheep may be susceptible to infection by TSEs or to become carriers. I hope that the Minister will assure us that an extremely thorough process of research and consultation will take place. I should like to see that on the face of the Bill.
The Minister is concerned about speed. I was a little surprised to hear him say that he was worried about the speed at which sheep breed. We are not here dealing with mice or rabbits and, naturally, sheep reproduce only once a year but science can speed up that process. The Minister must have a bleak expectation of the time that the legal process and our
Lord Carter: Amendment No. 19A requires an order subject to annulment, but that provision is already contained in new Section 36L. It states that such regulations under this part shall be
Lord Whitty: The Bill already provides for the sheep genotypes order to be subject to a negative resolution. That explanation probably disposes of the substance of Amendment No. 19A.
Amendment No. 19 seems to reflect the concern about the robustness of the scientific basis on which we are proceeding and the need for consultation. Throughout we have said that any decision taken by the Minister must be reasonably based on the scientific information at the time—which, it is to be hoped, will improve over time. We already have a substantial amount of knowledge and a fair amount of breeding out of scrapie has already taken place in relation to particular breeds. Therefore, we have the scientific information and some of the practicalities at our disposal.
However, before making an order we will need to base our decisions on the science and on a process of consultation. Members of the Committee can take my assurance now and at various points in our discussions that that will be so and is implied by the general duty to take reasonable decisions. I do not therefore believe that at every point we need to spell out the fact that this is subject to the best scientific opinion and to widespread consultation. We believe that the order-making process will ensure that.
"( ) The Ministry must, at the same time, publish their reasons and the scientific evidence behind the making of the order."
"subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament".
On that basis, Amendment No. 19A is—to use my favourite word—otiose.
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