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Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn during pleasure until 8.39 p.m.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to
[The Sitting was suspended from 8.36 to 8.39 p.m.]
Animal Health Bill
House again in Committee on Schedule 2.
Baroness Byford moved Amendment No. 22:
- Page 15, line 21, at end insert—
The noble Baroness said: In moving Amendment No. 22, I wish to speak also to Amendment No. 42. Amendment No. 22 speaks for itself. We seek to register a period during which blood samples are required to be stored. I can find no indication in the Bill of the Government's thinking on the matter. I plucked the period of six months out of the air. The Minister may tell me that samples should be kept for two or three years. I am unsure about that matter. Obviously, it is in the interests of those who keep sheep that the latter are not tested over and over again if that can be avoided. I seek clarification on that matter.
Amendment No. 42 tries to ensure that it will be possible to store sperm or eggs in a sperm or egg bank to retain precious breeding banks that could be used in the future. I refer also to their use for research purposes. In future particular breeds may or may not fall within a government mandatory slaughter programme. Earlier we discussed rare breeds and tried to persuade the Government to consider how rare breeds might be protected and allowed to exist even if
As I say, I have read the Bill carefully but can find no reference to this matter. I hope that the Minister will take my points on board. I beg to move.
Lord Livsey of Talgarth: I support the two amendments. I believe that the storage of samples is particularly important. Were they to be destroyed, we should lose that inheritance possibly for ever. It is vital that a storage facility should exist. Obviously it has to be kept in a safe place which cannot be accessed except through special means and perhaps even permits.
The need for egg and sperm banks is well known in the animal breeding world, as is the necessity to carry out research at some point under controlled conditions. Nothing could be worse than the prospect of losing such egg and sperm banks for all time. The greater the variety of genotypes that one has for research, the more valid one's research results will be. Such a variety could also open up new avenues.
Lord Whitty: As regards Amendment No. 42, as we discussed earlier, as currently drafted the Bill already provides for the Secretary of State to consider in advance the issuing of a restriction order where exceptional circumstances arise which would allow a sheep to be kept for breeding. We shall discuss what those exceptional circumstances might be. I assure the noble Baroness that we envisage that they could include such issues as research needs and the need to establish a semen, embryo or egg bank.
As regards the storage of blood samples, we already keep a small proportion of each blood sample taken under the voluntary NSP in order to retest samples if there is any problem. It is probable that we shall replicate that procedure under the new arrangements. We would need to consider including that provision in the implementing regulations. I believe that that is the appropriate place to include that measure.
I am not entirely sure about the merits of a six-month storage period as we may want to retest samples at any time. We shall need to take into account the level of sampling and the storage capacity we shall need and the access and resource costs involved in that. However, those issues should be contained in the implementing regulations.
Baroness Byford: I am grateful for the support of the noble Lord, Lord Livsey, for the two amendments. The Minister did not answer the question I asked. I suggested a six-month period out of sheer ignorance. However, I seek information from the Minister on the period during which samples are valid. What capacity does the department have to store the many samples that will need to be stored?
Lord Whitty: Under the present system we keep a small proportion of each blood sample. Whether we
Baroness Byford: I am grateful for that response. Later we shall discuss whether an individual sheep sample is taken or a sample from a flock. I think that the Minister understands where my remarks are coming from. There are between 20 million and 40 million sheep in this country. That constitutes many samples. I refer to the practical implications of the matter. I seek guidance from the Minister on the Government's thinking on moving forward the agenda.
I believe that the Government could experience difficulties due to their commitments in regard to Europe. I refer to the commitment to preserve biodiversity. I refer also to the primitive state of science in the field we are discussing. Certainly the matter will give cause for concern to those with rare breeds of pedigree stock. I refer again to the importance of cross-breeding in this regard. It is not just a matter of considering rare breeds per se. However, the matter will give cause for concern to those with rare breeds and particularly those hardest hit by foot and mouth disease such as the Hill Radnor and the Whitefaced Woodland. As regards many of those breeds semen will already be stored from sheep that are now dead and are not available for testing.
If the Government accept Amendment No. 42, they may want to include rules on the scope and use of gametes. Some may fall under the provisions of new Section 36C(2) but if the original sheep have been subject to a restriction notice, there will need to be some derogation under new Section 36F(2) about what constitutes an offence. The Minister may not be able to respond to my points. The difficulty with the Bill is that we keep coming up with amendments to which the noble Lord understandably at present is not able to give full answers. However, I should be grateful if he would consider the matter before the next day of Committee proceedings.
Lord Whitty: I cannot answer that point but I shall look into it. However, I am now in a position to give a clearer answer to a previous question. Under the present system a small proportion of each blood sample is kept for two years.
Baroness Byford: I am grateful for those comments. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
The Duke of Montrose moved Amendment No. 23:
The noble Duke said: Amendment No. 23 is grouped with Amendments Nos. 29 and 51. Here, we turn to the problem of the word "sheep" being both a collective and a singular noun. I am anxious to avoid the possibility of a whole flock or breed being condemned. As it stands, the Bill might not allow for
Amendment No. 51 seeks to ensure that the appeal relates only to the individual sheep specified by the appellant. My amendments would ensure that, if a particular animal in a flock were less susceptible, it could be retained. That element of flexibility is not clear in the Bill as it stands. I beg to move.
Lord Livsey of Talgarth: We regard these as tidying-up amendments which make specific references to individual sheep. At this point, I am tempted to quote Thomas Love Peacock. He was a favourite poet of Dylan Thomas and the latter used to relate his poetry in public. One poem was along the lines of:
I believe that there is something of a danger of that happening here.
The Countess of Mar: I endorse the amendment. Earlier we had a discussion about boluses in sheep, in which each sheep is identified as an individual animal. Therefore, we need to have individual certificates for sheep.
Lord Whitty: There is an individual identifier but, in that sense, the amendment would bring about a duplication. If literally interpreted, it would mean that we should have to issue an individual certificate for every sheep that was genotyped. Indeed, the noble Countess clarified that point. That seems to me to be over the top. It would certainly be very resource-intensive. We should need to have some flexibility so that we could issue a certificate to cover a number of sheep genotyped within a flock.
As to the question of individual and collective sheep, the Bill already provides that the restriction on breeding applies in relation to "a" sheep. Therefore, the word "individual" inserted in that context would be superfluous, quite apart from its syntactical infelicity, if I may say so.
Amendment No. 51 would also remove the flexibility of the current drafting, which would permit an appellant to alter, in the light of new or relevant information, the scope of the appeal to include other sheep covered by the same restriction notice. Therefore, it would somewhat limit the room for manoeuvre of the appellant. I do not believe that that was the intention behind the amendment, but it would be the effect.
"( ) make provision with respect to the storage of samples for a period of not less than six months;"
8.45 p.m.
Page 15, line 23, after "of" insert "individual"
"The mountain sheep are sweeter
But the valley sheep are fatter.
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