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The Countess of Mar: I, too, support the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, for exactly the same reasons as stated by the noble Lord, Lord Jopling.
Although the Blackface Scottish sheep, mentioned by the noble Duke, the Duke of Montrose, and the Welsh hill sheep are fairly numerous at the moment, I understand that for a long time MAFFI do not know whether DEFRA has taken over the cloak of MAFF in this respecthas not liked the lambs produced by mountain sheep. Sheep tend to produce male and female lambs in more or less equal numbers. Female lambs are wonderfulthey go on to breedbut what does one do with all the small, male lambs that do not fit into the European grading system? For a long time, the only markets for such sheep have been the Spanish and Italian ones where they like to cook their lambs whole. However, foot and mouth disease was a disaster because there was then no market for the little lambs. Tesco started selling small lambs, which worked for a while.
We must maintain the diversity of our flock. The Minister is learning a great deal about sheep tonight; about all the different breeds and how the system works. We must ensure that we keep the Blackface sheep and the mountain sheep because they are the base for our breeding stock for meat. I wholly support the need for biodiversity.
The Lord Bishop of Hereford: I support the amendments. They are among the most important on the Marshalled List tonight because people were concerned that Part 2 of the Bill threatened variety and biodiversity. The amendments spell out what the Government have stated obliquely in new Section 36C(2). However, it needs to be stated clearly that in allowing exceptions in an accelerated programme for the elimination of scrapie, which most Members believe is a good one, there must be safeguards in particular for biodiversity. I should be pleased if the Government were able to accept a specific amendment along those lines.
Lord Livsey of Talgarth: Having drafted Amendment No. 31, I support what was said by my noble friend Lord Jopling. Recently in Craven Arms market, Knighton market and Builth Wells it is common to have 20,000 Clun Forest ewes. When I was about 10 years old, I used to drove thousands of Kerry Hill ewes into the market place. Their numbers are now smallthey are almost rare breedsand they represent a gene pool which must have a chance to survive. That is vital because many of the characteristics of those two breeds are unique, which
is why they were so popular and may become popular again. We must be careful about what we are doing in this legislation.
Lord Carter: We can see what the noble Lord is driving at with these amendments. I was interested in the description of the various breeds by the noble Lord, Lord Jopling. We all knew that the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, was a Cross-Bencher but it seems that she is also a cross-breeder.
As at Amendment No. 31(2A), experience tells me that it is dangerous to specify a list by order because if one is missed out there could be considerable problems. I should be interested to know whether the Minister will adopt the devise that is often used for consultation amendments in the Bill; a requirement to consult.
The Government must be left with a degree of freedom because the people and organisations with whom they must consult change. If they are specified by order, one runs into problems. Furthermore, if we were to have such an order as that specified in subsection (2B)and it would not be necessary if there were a consultation amendmentit should be under the negative rather than the affirmative procedure.
It would be better if the Minister would consider a consultation amendment. That is often a way of getting around the problem of having to specify matters in a changing situation. I understand all that has been said about minority breeds but all the briefing I have seen shows that DEFRA is anxious to understand the problems. It is consulting all the stakeholders and there would be consultation on any orders it lays. Therefore, it would do the Government no harm to accept a consultation amendment.
Baroness Byford: I support the two amendments, although I accept that Amendment No. 31 is a little too specific. However, the desire behind it is to achieve the preservation of certain breeds and I hope that the Government will give it serious thought.
As regards Amendment No. 30, are any requirements laid on the Government under the 1992 convention? I am not aware that any are. I should like that clarified.
Secondly, perhaps I may pull my noble friend's leg. My noble friend Lord Jopling referred to the housewife wanting quality of meat. Heaven forbid! In our family, my husband sometimes buys the meat and has a very good eye for good quality meat. Although I jest, my noble friend makes an important point. To obtain the quality of meat we all want, it is important that some of these breeds are preserved, and with care.
What are other European countries doing about their respective sheep breeds? Are they being as specific as we are? Where are they on their sheep breeding programme? Where are they on their scrapie eradication programme? The noble Lord mentioned two countries, Franceand I cannot remember the other countrywhich have started along this path. What responsibilities are placed on countries in the
EU? I accept that they may not all keep sheep but most do. I should be grateful for clarification from the Minister.The right reverend Prelate rightly spoke of variety and biodiversity. Those of us who sat through many minutes, hours and days of debate on the Countryside and Rights of Way Act will remember that one of my amendments proposed a proper biodiversity plan. I support the right reverend Prelate's comments.
On Amendment No. 30, do we have to have regard to any rules and regulations? Amendment No. 31 as drafted may be too specific. However, it would be helpful if the Government were to propose an amendment which meets the views expressed today.
If I wished to tempt, I might ask noble Lords on the Liberal Democrat Benches to put the matter to a vote. The matter is serious. It is one to which we must return later. I urge the Minister to clarify some of the points raised and hope that the Government will meet some of the concerns at the next stage of the Bill.
Lord Whitty: I recognise the concern about preservation of rare breeds and other blood lines. It is the Government's intention to do exactly what noble Lords urge. The exceptional circumstance provision would allow such issues as rarity and genetic value of the breed to be exempted from aspects of the scrapie plan. We are already in discussion with individual breed societies on the issue. We are conducting a voluntary genotype survey in rare breed flocks and working closely with the Rare Breeds Survival Trust.
If there turned out to be breeds where conversion to resistance would be wholly impractical, or would endanger the breed, clearly that would fall under exceptional circumstances. We need to continue in that direction. The Government's commitment is in no doubt.
We support all the provisions of the convention, as do other countries. We do not think that there is a contradiction between the convention and improving the management of the flock. That was discussed at the recent meeting of the parties in May 2000. It was recognised that there is potential to improve the management of agricultural stock through selection and breeding without contravening the biodiversity aspect. The Government's practice to date has been to do precisely what noble Lords seek.
I believe that Members of the Committee recognise that the amendment as it stands is not satisfactory, in part because the second amendment is a list provision and thus would mean that we could not exempt things for other purposes. In some cases it could be interpreted literally. On this occasion, I recognise the concerns expressed and I undertake to see whether anything can be done to ameliorate them. Whether that takes a form along the lines suggested by my noble friend Lord Carter or otherwise, I have not yet decided. I shall return to the matter on Report.
Lord Greaves: I am grateful for the general support expressed on all sides of the Committee for the
amendments. I believe that I can now include the Minister in that supportor at least the potential is there. I thank him for his comments. We look forward with eager anticipation to seeing what he brings back on Report.I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, that we would not put this matter to a vote tonight. It is too important simply to make a political gesture. Given the commitment made by the Minister that he will spend some time considering the matter over the summer, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton moved Amendment No. 32:
The noble Baroness said: I spoke to this amendment with Amendment No. 11. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Plumb moved Amendment No. 33:
The noble Lord said: This amendment recognises the different emphasis between subsections (2) and (3). The latter implies that breeding that is unjustified would be the verdict in a minority of cases. On the other hand, subsection (2) refers to "exceptional circumstances" in which sheep would be allowed to breed.
I hope the Minister recognises from our earlier debates that we are moving towards scrapie-free breeding sheep. If we look back over the past year, the genotyping of over 100,000 sheep to establish their resistance to scrapie has been completed under the national scrapie plan, which is impressive. A well-defined pattern is now being put in place. The real concern lies in the linkage between subsection (3) and subsections (7) and (9). Subsection (9) provides that animals with a high susceptibility,
I am pleased that the Minister has pledged his support for the continuation of this all-important scheme. It will lead to a more positive outcome in the long term.
The study carried out by the Institute of Rural Studies at the University of Wales has been referred to several times. Two of the most eminent scientists I know in the sheep industry have made it absolutely clear that they believe that the most effective means of enhancing the rate at which the national flock moves towards scrapie resistance is to increase the uptake of the national scrapie plan. Given that, I hope the Minister will accept that the amendment is moved with much feeling and concern for the future development of the breeding flocks in this country. I beg to move.
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