Previous Section Back to Table of Contents Lords Hansard Home Page


The Countess of Mar: I have a little difficulty with the amendment because it is does not make sense.

25 Jul 2002 : Column 629

What is being said here is that the banning of breeding in sheep would not be justified and that the Minister must give notice to the keeper. If one thinks that a ban on breeding in sheep is not justified, then one is allowing the sheep to breed. Why must a notice be given to the keeper? I think I have said enough.

The Lord Bishop of Hereford: I believe this amendment to be misconceived. I should like to come to the defence of the Minister in this respect. In new Section 36C of the 1981 Act we are talking about sheep where we are presuming that there is a problem from the point of view of a genotype. We are presuming that we shall not be using them for breeding. However, new Section 36C(2) refers to "exceptional circumstances", which may be some of those covered by the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves. Nevertheless, it may be right to allow breeding. If I may say so, with due respect, the noble Lord, Lord Plumb, has misunderstood the general thrust of this part of the Bill. I support the Government on this point.

Lord Jopling: I have a problem that I believe it may be convenient for me to raise at this stage, especially as this amendment deals with the possibility of "banning breeding from the sheep". I have been concerned for quite some time about the details of banning. No doubt when he responds and talks about banning breeding from sheep, the Minister will be kind enough to refer to what appears a little further on in subsection (7)(a), which says that the keeper must not,


    "use a sheep to which the notice applies, or its semen, eggs or embryos, for purposes of or connected with breeding".

That is the nuts and bolts of banning breeding.

Science has moved on. We now know that it is possible to breed from a sheep without using semen, eggs, or embryos. There is the famous case of Dolly the sheep, which was cloned and not bred from semen, eggs or embryos. I have not managed to find a tabled amendment that deals with this point, so I believe that this is the time to raise it. As regards the banning of breeding of sheep, can the Minister say how the definitions under the Bill cover the use of modern cloning techniques where an animal can be produced technically by using material from the animal that is not semen, eggs or embryos?

At some stage in the proceedings on the Bill, we may need to add an amendment to the list of semen, eggs or embryos to embrace the possibility of cloning from material taken from an animal that would not fall under those descriptions. I hope that I have made myself clear. It is the classic case of Dolly the sheep that brings me to the thought that perhaps the definition of what is banned is not properly covered in the Bill. It would be helpful if the Minister could comment on that aspect in his reply.

Lord Carter: I wondered when Dolly the sheep would enter our debates. The noble Lord has made an interesting point. However, I should point out to the noble Lord, Lord Plumb, that I believe he was a little

25 Jul 2002 : Column 630

inconsistent in proposing this amendment. As we all know, there is every intention to get on with the national scrapie plan; indeed, everyone involved wants to get on with it. Yet the amendment, as proposed, would in fact delay the process. It would be time-consuming and introduce delay. I realise what the noble Lord is driving at but if we were to proceed in the way suggested it would delay the NSP. I am sure that that is not the noble Lord's intention.

Lord Whitty: I cannot respond to the amendment any more eloquently or logically than the right reverend Prelate. I believe that the intention here is misconstrued, because it would be putting the exception the wrong way round. The presumption is that we can ban unless there are "exceptional circumstances"—in which case we allow breeding. That is what subsection (2) provides. It could include the circumstances that we were debating as regards the previous amendment.

I turn to cloning. Cloning is not covered in any part of the Bill and there is certainly no intention either to facilitate or not to facilitate cloning in general. The noble Lord, Lord Jopling, made an interesting point. If the intention is to stop breeding and to get past the provisions by using otherwise legal cloning, that would present a different set of circumstances which we might need to take into account. I shall take advice on that before we reach the Bill's next stage.

9.45 p.m.

The Countess of Mar: Does one not need an egg to clone a sheep? I understand that one uses an egg and modifies it in order to do the cloning.

The Lord Bishop of Hereford: I come to the Minister's defence again. The Bill refers to,


    "a sheep . . . or its semen, eggs or embryos".

I should have thought that the word "sheep" at the beginning of those two phrases would cover cloning or any other scientific procedure that may be developed in years to come.

Lord Jopling: No, that is not so because "semen, eggs or embryos" refers to particles of living tissue taken from a sheep. Technically, cloning can be carried out by taking living material from a live animal which is not semen, egg or embryo. I believe that the noble Lord, Lord Carter, is nodding in agreement. All four items would involve material taken from the animal. That is different from the broad description, "sheep". If "sheep" does not embrace those other three items, it should embrace the four items.

Lord Plumb: I have no quarrel with the Minister's response. It brought out some extremely useful points and it led to a discussion of the cloning issue and of Dolly. That is an added dimension but it helps the debate. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

25 Jul 2002 : Column 631

The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Haskel): I have to tell the Committee that if Amendment No. 34 is agreed, I cannot call Amendments Nos. 35 and 36.

Lord Livsey of Talgarth moved Amendment No. 34:


    Page 15, leave out lines 29 to 32 and insert—


"( ) Upon completion of the provisions outlined in section subsection (2), the Minister shall establish—
(a) a restriction notice in which the restrictions and the requirements imposed by subsections (7) to (9) apply in relation to sheep after the completion of four years following the commencement of the eradication scheme with pedigree flocks; and
(b) a further target date for the national commercial sheep flock of the eradication of genes susceptible to scrapie."

The noble Lord said: I regard this as an extremely important amendment. In saying that, I pray in aid the letter that some of us received from John Thorley, the secretary of the National Sheep Association. In doing so, I acknowledge the presence here of my friend the noble Lord, Lord Plumb. Happily, I met him unexpectedly at the Royal Welsh Show, which led to a discussion of some of these important issues.

Sir John Thorley said in the last paragraph of his letter:


    "To take the industry forward in a sensible way, we would contend that a period of four breeding seasons needs to elapse before consideration is given to introduce rules which entail restricting the use of breeding stock according to their resistance rating. Our recommendation therefore is that any legislation currently being put in place should reflect this aspect as the best option to move the industry forward in a constructive way".

The amendment is an attempt to meet the wishes of the industry, as expressed by the National Sheep Association, and to address them in a practical manner. Therefore, paragraph (a) addresses "pedigree flocks" and paragraph (b) the situation in the "commercial sheep flock", which we have already discussed at some length.

We would like there to be concentration on the pedigree flocks to ensure that there are sufficient numbers of rams in the country within four years that are resistant to the imposition of scrapie—in other words, of high specification—so that they can be put on ewes in order to upgrade the entire British sheep flock.

Clearly in the case of commercial sheep flocks, where there are insufficient numbers of rams of a high enough specification, a greater length of time will be required to bring those flocks up to date in comparison with pedigree flocks. The amendment will fulfil the timescales required to upgrade the flocks, particularly the pedigree flocks, so that we get well on our way towards establishing an eventual scrapie-free flock in the United Kingdom.

This is related to the national scrapie plan—it could be a specification—and the amendment would fulfil some good objectives. Reference was made earlier to establishing targets which could be met. But, crucially, we need time to procure an improved flock and time to ensure that there are enough sheep in the country with scrapie-resistant genes. It has been estimated that it could take 20 years to achieve that with the

25 Jul 2002 : Column 632

commercial flock—that may or may not be correct—but we could start with pedigree flocks, meet some targets and use those on the commercial flocks in the country.

Lord Carter: I am not sure whether the noble Lord has missed out something in the drafting of the amendment. The first line states:


    "Upon completion of the provisions outlined in section subsection (2)".

Should "section 36C" be inserted? Is that what the noble Lord intended?


Next Section Back to Table of Contents Lords Hansard Home Page