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Lord Livsey of Talgarth: I believe so.

Lord Carter: Yes. It would only make sense if that were inserted. That has been missed out.

Lord Livsey of Talgarth: I apologise.

Lord Carter: I do not understand the English, as it were, in paragraph (a). Once the Minister has completed the provisions outlined in subsection (2)—which covers the exceptional circumstances—he applies,


Which sheep? The sheep that have been caught by the exceptional circumstances? Is that the intention?

The paragraph continues:


    "after the completion of four years following the commencement of the eradication scheme with pedigree flocks".

I am not at all clear about the underlying meaning.

Lord Livsey of Talgarth: I have to be quite honest, I am not used to being cross-examined on the drafting of amendments by a former Chief Whip. Clearly I mean the upgrading of the pedigree flocks. That means that after four years there will be a sufficient critical mass of sheep which reach the required standards and terms of the necessary gene pool.

Baroness Byford: I support the thrust of the amendment. We are, perhaps, beginning to cover the same ground over and over again, but it is right that that should happen.

The amendment ties in with my Amendment No. 95A. I hope that the Minister will give it due consideration. The noble Lord, Lord Carter, is right to seek clarification, but again and again we come back to the whole question of ensuring that we have enough gene stock for the future. I may be repeating myself, but again I ask the Minister why we are in such a hurry? I know that we want to move the agenda forward but, as I asked when debating earlier amendments, what kind of target plan do the Government have in mind? The current provision on the voluntary side is likely to take up to 25 years, which the Government think is too long. But how long do they think is sufficiently long enough but not too long? If, in trying to protect a nucleus of our breeding stock, the Minister does not like the four-year period, I hope

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he will recognise—as he may when we debate my Amendment No. 95A at the end of the Session—that it is beholden on him to give us some indication as to what period of time the Government feel is reasonable, practical and possible. We are not asking to tie the Minister down to a period of three years and nine months, or six years and 28 days. But the present debate is open-ended—it ranges from suggestions of a period of four years, to the 20 years suggested at present.

At some stage the Government must become much sharper in their responses. If not, they will find a certain insistence on these Benches, if not from colleagues on the Liberal Democrat Benches, to seek greater clarification. We seek to ensure that our sheep are the best sheep produced in the UK, and in the world, and that people want to buy our produce. The one thing that we do not want to do is to reduce our ability to produce prime quality meat.

The Countess of Mar: I agree with the noble Baroness and with the noble Lord, Lord Livsey, on the need for a time-scale for the plan, whether it is voluntary or compulsory. However, dare I say that I find paragraph (a) of the amendment woolly? It is not clear. It needs to be tidied up if we are to accept it. Subject to the Minister's response, perhaps the noble Lord will agree to bring it back at the next stage.

Lord Livsey of Talgarth: We think that there may be a misprint in the amendment, but we have not got to the bottom of it. So I hope that the noble Countess will accept that for the moment.

Lord Whitty: The noble Baroness is pressing for end dates to a process that we are yet in the process of defining. We are not clear about exactly what tracts can be benchmarks beyond the immediate ones. So I cannot oblige the noble Baroness with even a target end date to this process. I know that the NSA has suggested that there should be a four-year brake on the process, as it were, presumably in order to get a phased approach to dealing with the breeding restrictions, first, on pedigree flocks and then on commercial flocks. I can understand why the NSA wants that, but to lay down such a time-scale in statute would not be wise or helpful. We need to do it either on a voluntary basis or on a mandatory basis.

We need to discuss further with the industry the phasing of this approach. A certain amount of flexibility is needed. Therefore, whether or not the clarity of the wording of the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Livsey, can be addressed, I do not accept the principle of writing a period of four years on to the face of the Bill.

Baroness Byford: Before the noble Lord replies, in my request to him earlier I was not referring to such a provision being placed on the face of the Bill. I was seeking clarification in general terms. I cannot speak for the noble Lord, Lord Livsey, but from our point of

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view it would be enormously helpful if we could have some indication from the Government as to whether the period might be five, 10 or 15 years—or two years.

Lord Livsey of Talgarth: There are a number of points to make in summing up the debate. It is clearly the wish of the NSA to have a period of four breeding seasons from here on. The reason for that is that the association lost some time before the foot and mouth outbreak, and lost time in implementing the scheme during the foot and mouth outbreak. But in addition, during the foot and mouth outbreak a number of high-quality, scrapie-free flocks were destroyed. So in one sense matters have gone backwards: sheep have been slaughtered that would have been used to accelerate the scheme. The four breeding seasons stipulated in the amendment take account of that situation.

It may be that the national scrapie plan ought to aim for four breeding seasons to ensure that there are enough pedigree rams in the country to take the scheme on. We have debated whether that should be in statute. I should like that to be clarified. If the Minister does not want it on the face of the Bill, perhaps he might have discussions with the various parties about the national scrapie plan to see if an action plan can be produced to take the sheep industry forward a long way in eliminating scrapie over a reasonable period. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

[Amendment No. 35 not moved.]

10 p.m.

Lord Whitty moved Amendment No. 36:


    Page 15, line 29, leave out "Minister" and insert "Secretary of State"

On Question, amendment agreed to.

[Amendments Nos. 37 and 38 not moved.]

Lord Whitty moved Amendments Nos. 39 and 40:


    Page 15, line 36, leave out "Minister" and insert "Secretary of State"


    Page 15, line 38, leave out "Minister" and insert "Secretary of State"

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Baroness Byford moved Amendment No. 41:


    Page 15, line 38, leave out "may" and insert "shall"

The noble Baroness said: We hope that whoever briefs the Minister about the need for the restriction notice will know whether the owner and/or the keeper are one and the same person. If they are not, the process leading up to the raising of the instruction should identify the owner. After that, the copy of the instructions for the owner is a detail for the department, but of a great simplification for the person receiving it. Will the Minister explain in slightly greater detail the process by which he or the department envisage the instructions being raised? I beg to move.

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Lord Jopling: I strongly support the amendment, particularly because sheep are sent away from the protection of the owner to the protection of others much more often than any other type of farm animal. It is very common practice. I know the north of England, but others here will have experience of other places, such as Wales, where sheep are sent away for the winter from the upland areas—what in the North we call the upper dales—to be finished or fattened on sugar beet tops or, in the old days, turnips down in the lowlands. That is still a fairly common practice.

I knew an old farmer years ago who used to talk about his sheep going away for their summer holidays. It is very common practice for sheep to be agisted, as it is called, into areas under the care and protection of someone who is not the owner. In most cases, if an order has to be given to the keeper of the sheep, he will immediately tell the owner what has happened, but, as this is such common practice, that will not always happen. It is essential that the interests of the owner should be properly looked after, bearing in mind that so many sheep are put away on to land other than the owner's to be looked after at various times of the year by other people.

The Countess of Mar: I agree entirely with the noble Lord, Lord Jopling, and the noble Baroness, Lady Byford. Before we had our own sheep flock, we used to take what in the Midlands we would call a flying flock—lambs and hoggets—just for fattening; they used to use our grass. They would be with us for perhaps a few weeks and then go on either to market or to new pastures. It is essential that both the keeper and the owner are advised of the status of their sheep.


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