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Lord Jopling: I have agreed with a great deal of what the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, has said during our debates, but I am not terribly happy about the amendment. I am not sure whether the proposal in the Bill is too strong. I am anxious to hear how the Minister justifies it. However, the amendment is too loose.

I say that for one good reason. I remember the intense irritation in the north of England a few years ago over the spread of another sheep disease—sheep scab. It had been rampant throughout the country for many years, but following a tremendous campaign, which was largely voluntary and backed by a minimum of government regulation, we thought for years that sheep scab had been eliminated. It then reappeared in the south-west of England, entirely due to dilatory farm management and sloppy sheep husbandry. This most distressing disease then spread again right through the country. I remember wondering whether it would be necessary to introduce much stronger regulations to control it. I came to the conclusion years ago that the existing regulations controlling sheep scab were not strict enough and were not being sufficiently strictly enforced.

I have the feeling that the amendment is too loose. I would be very unhappy to support it because the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, has gone too far the other way. The Government's proposal may be somewhat too strong, but I reserve my judgment on that until I hear the Minister's response. How strongly enforcement of the law is carried out is a matter of fine balance. My experience with sheep scab leads me to believe that one needs to be pretty tough about it.

The Countess of Mar: I am awfully sorry to have to give the noble Lord, Lord Jopling, another history lesson. Sheep scab was eradicated in this country in 1952 after compulsory dipping at which police constables had to be present. It was very strictly enforced at that time. Sheep scab came back into this country in 1972 from a flock imported from Ireland on to the Yorkshire-Lancashire borders. Sheep scab was discovered, and the sheep were dipped with MAFF inspectors present. Very unfortunately, the MAFF inspectors did not check that the dip was a scab dip. That is how it spread. There have been dilatory farmers; I make no pretence about that. However, that is the history of sheep scab and dipping.

I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Jopling, that there is some need for the law to enforce the intentions behind this plan. However, we have a lot of "mays" instead of "shalls" here. I hope to hear from the

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Minister that the "mays" will be enforced with a very light rein and that a heavy hand will be used only when it is absolutely necessary and someone has been truly defiant.

Lord Whitty: I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Jopling, that Amendment No. 67 would leave us with a very weak offence. It deletes all the offences relating to this part of the Bill, and replaces them with the rather difficult to establish and not always relevant issue of misrepresentation. So I really could not accept Amendment No. 67.

Amendment No. 72 and the other amendments that the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, mentioned relate in one way or another to the entry powers in relation to scrapie. We should understand the context in which the powers would be used. The noble Lord is clearly right that there is much less necessity for such power when we are carrying out an improvement and breeding policy than when we are dealing with an epidemic of a virulent disease. That is certainly true. I say to the noble Countess, Lady Mar, that, to that degree, the "may" would be exerted with a relatively light hand. Even then, however, there may be situations in which there is unhelpful resistance frustrating accomplishment of the plan and entry is required.

I think that I heard the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, aright when he said that exercise of the power in proposed new Section 36G does not require a warrant. It does. The provision is operable only with consent. If there is opposition there would not be consent and one would have to apply for a warrant under proposed new Section 36H. Therefore, one always has to go for a warrant when enforcing entry against the will of the owner or occupier. The justice of the peace would clearly have to consider whether it was reasonable in all circumstances to seek to enforce entry. The balance of reasonableness will necessarily be different in cases involving implementation of the national sheep scrapie plan as against cases involving eradication of foot and mouth.

I think that the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, is exaggerating the extent to which this represents a serious erosion of civil liberties. However, as I know that there are anxieties, I intend to examine these powers and see whether we can make provision or give an assurance to ensure that that context is better understood, to make it clear that we do not envisage behaving in a draconian manner. The decision to take such action would be based on reasonableness and would be proportionate to the circumstances.

Baroness Byford: I wanted to hear the Minister's reply to these important amendments before contributing. I can partly understand the Government's dilemma. They have to balance a bit of stick with a bit of carrot, and sometimes it is difficult to know how much of each is necessary to achieve the goal. I think that the most important point made in this debate is that the action should be proportionate. We are not talking about the emergency provisions to which we shall return after the Summer Recess. The

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provisions we are discussing deal with the important matter of the eradication of scrapie. The Government expect access and are demanding this, that and the other in a manner that is not proportionate or appropriate to their end task.

Although I understand where the noble Lord is coming from, I have difficulty in supporting the wording of Amendment No. 67. I was greatly encouraged—I hope that the noble Lord was also encouraged—when the Minister said that he would at least consider the measure we are discussing and some of the other measures which we shall discuss tonight. I hope that that signifies an acceptance on the part of the Government that the measure in the Bill is too strong.

Lord Greaves: I agree with the comments which have been made about Amendment No. 67. However, it is a legacy of what I was left with six months ago. I decided to move it as a probing amendment to determine the Minister's thinking on the matter. The amendments that comprise wholesale deletions cannot be anything other than probing. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, I am encouraged by the Minister's response. It is always encouraging to hear a Minister say that he will spend part of his precious summer holidays considering whether legislation might be improved. I look forward to hearing the results of that consideration when we return in the autumn, hopefully more sunburnt than we are now. In the meantime I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

[Amendments Nos. 68 to 72 not moved.]

Baroness Byford moved Amendment No. 73:


    Page 18, line 6, leave out "at all reasonable times" and insert "between 9 am and 5 p.m. (Monday to Friday)"

The noble Baroness said: In moving Amendment No. 73, I wish to speak also to Amendments Nos. 74, 76, 77, 79 and 80. As regards Amendment No. 73, this is not an exercise that requires to be precipitated in any helter-skelter fashion. The hours proposed in the amendment do not attempt to define the hours during which a livestock farmer works but tie in with the fact that most livestock farmers will have to carryout their duties, daily chores and inspections by nine o'clock in the morning and often much earlier. They will be in a more receptive mood to talk to officials who appear from nine o'clock onwards. The amendment seeks to persuade the Government to accept that it is better for officials to visit farmers between certain times rather than at a time which may not be convenient for farmers.

Amendment No. 73 proposes that officials should visit farmers between nine in the morning and five at night Monday to Friday. No doubt the Minister will say that such a provision is unreasonable and that officials should not be restricted to gaining access at certain times. However, the situation we are discussing does not constitute an emergency. There was a long discussion on the matter in the other place. We consider that it is reasonable for officials to visit farmers between nine in the morning and five at night.

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I should have thought that those hours were also reasonable from the point of view of officials. However, that is another matter.

As regards Amendment No. 74, we believe that it is an unnecessary burden on livestock owners to have to demand that an official shows evidence of his authority to take certain action. The very appearance of an inspector will engender a high degree of stress. The livestock owner will have to cope with a vast array of decisions. We believe that the phrase "if required" is unnecessary and we should like it to be deleted.

Amendment No. 76 seeks to leave out the words,


    "sworn information in writing",

and insert,


    "application to his court".

We were not sure why the Government wanted to have sworn information in writing. Was it because they were precluding the person in question from going to a court or a magistrate? Again, I should be grateful for an explanation on that matter from the Minister.

With regard to Amendment No. 77, the Bill as it stands will allow representatives of DEFRA to seek a warrant on the basis of a sworn statement alleging non-co-operation for someone who, at this stage, has no right to argue his case. That is why I was particularly anxious about the issue of the court. The amendment simply allows for the possibility that a farmer may have valid reasons, unknown to the department, for opposing entry at the time or in the circumstance requested. In view of the accusations levelled at certain employees of the ministry during the recent foot and mouth outbreak, and particularly as this matter relates to scrapie rather than emergency measures, that would seem eminently reasonable.

I turn to Amendment No. 79. I have been cudgelling my brains—they are becoming more difficult to cudgel at this time of night—to think of circumstances in which, in the pursuit of scrapie identification, giving notice of the intention to apply for a warrant would defeat the object of entering. I cannot see that happening. Would anyone hide a sheep to avoid a sample being taken for genotyping—perhaps certain noble Lords believe that that would happen—or would someone deliberately wipe his computer data rather than have his records examined? That seems to me to be on a par with six o'clock dawn raids and prohibiting a farmer and his family from leaving the farm or even talking to neighbours. I believe that the provision is unnecessary and, as such, should not be part of the Bill.

With regard to Amendment No. 80, it is unfortunately true that not all magistrates remember to date warrants as they sign them. It is also unfortunately true that warrants arrive for signature with the date already appended. In view of new Section 36H(5), the Bill should ensure that so far as possible the validation of a warrant cannot be illegally extended to accommodate the shortcomings, work overload or any other concerns of those who carry out the court mandate. I believe that any form of paperwork should, in any case, be dated—even more so in this case.

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I am sorry that this is a rather odd group of amendments, but I hope that my explanation of them has been sufficient. I beg to move.

11.30 p.m.

Lord Livsey of Talgarth: I consider Amendment No. 73 to be extremely practical so far as concerns practice in normal farm situations. There is nothing more annoying than if, in the middle of the morning milking session, for example, someone comes in and asks questions when one is trying to get the cups onto the next cow, or whatever. It seems to me essential that—


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